gold coast doulas

Kristin talks with Dr. Annie of Rise Wellness Chiropractic about how to keep yourself and your family healthy during pregnancy and a pandemic!  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Welcome.  You’re listening to Ask the Doulas, a podcast where we talk to experts from all over the country about topics related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and early parenting.  Let’s chat!

Kristin:  I’m Kristin, co-host of Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas, and I am joined today by Dr. Annie.  She’s here to chat with us from Rise Wellness Chiropractic.  Welcome, Dr. Annie!

Dr. Annie:  Thank you so much for having me, Kristin.  I’m so happy to be here!

Kristin:  Yeah, it’s been a while since we’ve chatted with you on the podcast!

Dr. Annie:  Probably since pre-COVID.

Kristin:  Yeah, and now we’re doing our podcast virtually versus in our office studio space.

Dr. Annie:  It’s weird not sitting across the table from you but being across the table from my computer, instead.

Kristin:  Exactly!  I’d love to you fill in our listeners and clients a bit about your specialties, your practice at Rise, and then we’ll get into talking about pregnancy and stress.

Dr. Annie:  Awesome.  Sure.  I am a pediatric certified chiropractor, and I’m also certified in Webster technique, which is a special technique for pregnancy.  So we practice basically mostly around pregnancy and perinatal care and then also see kiddos and helps with them with their spines as they grow, also.  So that’s kind of what we do.  We adjust really gently, and we look at the nervous system and help families improve their nervous system function.

Kristin:  And you are located, of course, in Grand Rapids to serve West Michigan families, and just to fill in our listeners a bit about Webster and how that’s different from general chiropractic care, could you give a little bit of background about the Webster technique?

Dr. Annie:  Of course.  The Webster technique kind of started being developed probably in the ’80s, and it was focused on pregnant bodies and how the alignment of the pelvis affects the uterus and torsion in the uterus, as well, so that affects baby positioning and everything.  That was kind of how it was developed because pregnant women need specialized care.  We can’t just adjust them like any other adult body.  There’s relaxin in the system, so we need to be very specific and very gentle when it comes to adjusting pregnant bodies, especially as baby is growing and as mom becomes more uncomfortable in the pregnancy.  And then that also kind of translates into different specialized care for postpartum bodies, as well, and also for infants and kids, too.

Kristin:  And ideally, like with our clients, they like to come to you as early as pregnancy — it’s optimal to see you early, but also, you always take last-minute patients, especially if baby is malpositioned and we need to do some work positioning-wise.  So how does that all translate into — since it is a specific technique, can some of the work you’re doing as a Webster-certified chiropractor also help the nervous system and — or would that be different chiropractic care in addition to seeing you for prepping for birth?

Dr. Annie:  That’s a great question.  I think there’s a little bit of a disconnect with how we think about chiropractic care as a musculoskeletal alignment approach and a nervous system approach.  All chiropractic is centered around the spine because that’s what protects our central nervous system.  That’s how our brain communicates and coordinates everything that happens in our body.  So the benefits of any adjustment, whether it is for a pain basis or a musculoskeletal approach, is affecting the body through the nervous system, and that’s how we heal.  And so that better alignment affects the nervous system from a basic standpoint, but then with Webster technique specifically, because we’re looking at the alignment of the pelvis for birth, that is also going to influence the nervous system and how labor happens, basically.  So the communication between the brain and the uterus during contractions, that is all going to be affected, also, by the alignment of the pelvis.

Hey, Alyssa here.  I just wanted to hop on real quick and let everyone know about a really exciting new course that Kristin and I have been working on called Becoming.  It’s all about becoming a mother, and in six weeks online, we will be giving video lessons and live coaching calls weekly with Kristin and I, along with a private Facebook community to offer encouragement and support.  This six-week online class will actually be launching beta, which is our first launch, on March 22 with our live call on March 26.  You can get into this beta program at a really, really super reduced price, so check us out on our website to join.  We’d love to have you join us and learn all about pregnancy, birth, and early parenting and especially during this scary time of COVID.  Let us be your expert guides.  We hope to see you there!

Kristin:  Obviously, especially during COVID, women are under a lot of stress and strain in their pregnancy.  How can chiropractic care help them reduce their stress and stay healthy?

Dr. Annie:  This is a big question, a big multifaceted question, I feel like.  So the stress of COVID is just — I mean, it’s insane.  I feel like we all are really good at adapting, as human beings, to doing Zoom calls instead, limiting who we see and limiting our time outside, and jobs have pivoted and all of that stuff, and we’ve gotten used to all this background stress in our lives, right?  For pregnant women, too, we’ve kind of shifted how women are being seen for their prenatal visits, who they can bring with them, even what their birth process looks like, whether it’s in the hospital.  We’ve had a lot of moms who have switched to doing home births because of regulations in the hospital, too.  So it’s just layers and layers of stress, right?  Especially if you’re trying to plan for bringing an infant into the world.  That is also compacted with jobs being shifted to being at home.  A lot of people are working at home, sitting a lot more, especially when it’s below 10 degrees outside here.  So they’re sitting more; we’re not moving as much as we normally do.  There’s all this background stress, and a lot of times, we’re sitting and working on laptops because who has a desktop computer anymore?  So ergonomics: there’s a lot of biomechanics that are shifted into this, and then we also have the stress component, too, on top of it.  So, again, layers and layers and layers of stress on our bodies, especially if you’re a pregnant body and tend to be more hypermobile because of the hormones that are going on.  So lots going on there.  How we address that from a chiropractic approach: we measure nervous system stress.  We use electromyography, which is the electrical activity in muscles that support the spine, and then we also measure heart rate variability, which is a specific stress outcome measure.  So we can see if your body is super stressed out, if your nervous system’s stressed out, or if we’re super burnt out, too.  Those are the things that we measure in our practice before we even start care so we can see, like, how is this mom doing, and how is this baby doing, too?  We’re seeing some really stressed out babies, too.  We can measure that as we’re adjusting and as we’re going through care to make sure that things are functioning better and that our resiliency is raised so our stress outcomes are better.  It doesn’t mean that we’re not going to have all of the stress on our bodies because it’s just kind of the reality that we’re living with right now, but it makes us more adaptable and able to better combat that stress and switch back into parasympathetics.

Kristin:  And I’ve even been in your office when you’ve instructed patients to do different stretches, and you’re looking at, again, what their day-to-day looks like as well as assessing their body and giving them tips.  And you had talked a bit about the isolation, and your practice has this wonderful sense of community with your online space, and women are able to connect.  And you also give tips out every week on your Facebook page, and so you’ve done a great job of trying to connect your patients and reduce some of the isolation that COVID has caused.

Dr. Annie:  Thank you so much.  Yeah, it’s hard.  I mean, I’m an extroverted person.  I feel so grateful that I get to still see my patients, you know, and that we were able to stay open through the pandemic.  I’d go crazy sitting at home by myself.  And I know that so many people feel that way.  Especially with birth, bringing children into this world.  We always say it takes a village, and that community and village is nonexistent right now, and that breaks my heart because I think that’s something that we don’t talk about as a society enough.  It’s the social and emotional impacts of the stress and not being able to have that sense of community.

Kristin:  Exactly.  And we have so many people who are not originally from Grand Rapids that even, you know, taking the COVID factor of isolation away, if they’re new to the community, it’s like they need that sense of support.  And going to some of your general healthcare professionals, like a chiropractor during pregnancy, can create some of that community.  Even the virtual classes that we teach, we’ve had students exchange emails and wanting to go on walks, safely distanced with masks, and find a way to connect with people who are going through the same exact thing.

Dr. Annie:  Yeah, I think that’s incredible.  We had two families come in kind of back to back in our office last week, and it was so cute because they we both kids and they both, like, went and grabbed toys and kind of played six feet apart but were shouting back and forth to each other.  Kids need that, too.  They need that sense of community.  We’re social beings.  We have a vagus nerve, and that is, you know, that’s our brake pedal.  That’s a lot of our parasympathetic activities in our bodies, and that is all — you know, we need that social engage to help with our stress, too.

Kristin:  Yeah, what was that study — I saw an article about the number of hugs the average human is supposed to receive in a day, and it’s surprisingly high, like 12 or 13, from what I recall.

Dr. Annie:  Yeah, but with kids, it’s in the 60s or something like that.  Yeah.  That’s all polyvagal theory.  That’s how we socialize and how we — that touch and human interaction is so important.

Kristin:  Yes!  Getting back to the topic of stress and pregnancy and COVID, what tips do you have for our listeners to reduce stress and what resources to you recommend connecting them with?

Dr. Annie:  Yeah.  Anything that we think of, just kind of generally, if we’re reducing stress.  Like, we often think of yoga, medication, deep breathing, those kinds of things.  Those are all good because they help stimulate that parasympathetic side of our nervous system, which is like our rest and digest — like I said earlier, it’s our brake pedal.  If we think of sympathetic, our flight or flight, as our gas pedal; it’s like the go-go-go.  We’re being chased by a tiger.  Our parasympathetics are to unwind, be able to sleep at night, that kind of stuff.  Digest our food; that’s all normal parasympathetic activity.  So anything that we think of as stress-relieving — deep breathing, all of that — helps stimulate our vagus nerve, and that is our brake pedal, so that stimulates our parasympathetic activity in our bodies.  So, like I said, yoga, deep breathing, all that stuff is really good.  Chiropractic care is super important about maintaining that balance, too, between our sympathetic and parasympathetic activity, and that’s one of the reasons that we measure heartrate variability in our office is so that we can, again, make sure that people’s stress resiliency is changing.  Other things, I mean, having that sense of community.  It feels like we’re so busy, even though our time is spent mostly at home.

Kristin:  Right.  I feel that, for sure!

Dr. Annie:  Making time for Zoom calls with friends, phone calls, Facetime, that kind of stuff, maintaining that sense of community and friendship is so, so important.  I can’t tell you the number of the people that come in and say something like, I just had a two-hour phone call with my best friend, and after that call, I just felt so much better.  I felt awake and alive and felt rejuvenated afterwards.  That’s because we need that social interaction.  We have community and friends for a reason.  Even though it feels a little inconvenient or it feels like — I don’t know; I get in ruts where it feels more stressful to set time aside to have a call or something like that, but I always feel so much better afterwards.

Kristin:  As an entrepreneur, there’s always work to do, so to carve out that time does seem like a lot, but it’s worth it.  I totally agree.

Dr. Annie:  And having conversations with people.  It’s all — it’s so good.

Kristin:  Especially when — I mean, again, you’re pregnant; you’re isolated; you’re trying to hear positive birth stories and surround yourself with people who support you and your baby, so yeah, finding a way to connect and to move your body, as we talked about; yoga or walking.  Just connecting with nature in some way, even though it’s cold; finding ways to move versus being stuck at a desk all day.

Dr. Annie:  Exactly.  All of that is super beneficial.  And, I mean, we’ve been telling our moms, you know, if you take some kind of online birth class, try to meet other moms.  Especially with first-time moms, they need to bounce ideas and, like you said, hear positive birth stories.

Kristin:  Exactly.

Dr. Annie:  With other women that are going through the same things that they are because there’s a lot that’s not talked about with pregnancy, just kind of in general, until you get into a conversation with a mom and they’re like, oh, yeah, you know, I get vagina lightning.  Where it’s like, I didn’t know that — I thought that was just me.

Kristin:  Yeah.  The things your friends don’t tell you.  Yeah.  Unless you’re in a class where it’s openly discussed or in some sort of a mom’s group, but yeah, it’s not anything that my friends ever passed on to me, and most of them had kids before I did.

Dr. Annie:  Well, and some of the things, you don’t think about until somebody’s like, you know, this has been hurting me a lot; have you had this?  Have you felt this?

Kristin:  Right.  So how can our listeners connect with you, first of all?  My second question would be, how can they find a Webster-certified chiropractor in their area?

Dr. Annie:  Good call.  We’re based in Eastown in Grand Rapids, West Michigan.  We have a website or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Risewellnesschiro.  They can find us that way.  We schedule people over Instagram and social media.

Kristin:  Yeah, you’re very active on social media, so people can message you and reach out if they don’t directly contact you at your website.

Dr. Annie:  Yep.  We also have our email addresses and stuff on all of those things.  Everything is interrelated, so — and it will be Rachel, my partner, or I reaching back out to you.  Even if you just have questions about general pregnancy stuff, too, if you’re having trouble finding a chiropractor in your area, we’re more than happy to help with that, too.  The best way that I would say to find a Webster certified chiropractor if you don’t live in West Michigan or if you don’t live in Grand Rapids — West Michigan is huge — is to go to the ICPA website.  That’s the International Chiropractic Pediatrics Association.  That’s who I’m certified through.  That’s who does the Webster does the Webster certification, and actually, it was all started by Larry Webster.  On their website, the very top link is to find a chiropractor near you, so you just type in your ZIP code and it will take you to the search.

Kristin:  So helpful!  Thank you.  We appreciate your time today, Dr. Annie, and I hope we can chat again soon in person!

Dr. Annie:  I hope so, too.  I miss seeing you guys.

Kristin:  We miss you, too!  Take care!

Author Lily Nichols talks to Kristin about gestational diabetes during pregnancy and how eating has such a profound impact on our health and energy levels.  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.  Be sure to check out Lily’s book!

Welcome.  You’re listening to Ask the Doulas, a podcast where we talk to experts from all over the country about topics related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and early parenting.  Let’s chat!

Kristin:  Hi, Lily!

Lily:  Hello!  How are you?

Kristin:  Great!  How are you?

Lily:  Doing well.

Kristin:  I’m excited to have you join us !

Lily:  Yeah, happy to be here!

Kristin:  So I would love to, first of all, introduce your background to our listeners and then hear what you’ve been up to since we last connected.  So for those of you who aren’t familiar with Lily’s work, Lily Nichols is a registered dietician, a specialist in prenatal nutrition, and best-selling author of the Real Food for Gestational Diabetes book, as well as Real Food for Pregnancy.

Lily:  Yeah.  I think you kind of summed it up really briefly.  As you gather from the title of my books, my focus is very much on how we can use real food and nutrition to optimize pregnancy outcomes.  So, you know, it’s right in the title of the books, right?  So I’m happy to chat more about and any questions you have about my background, of course.

Kristin:  So I’d love to know how you got into this line of work as a dietician, and then what you’re working on now outside of the books you’ve put out in the past.

Lily:  Yeah.  Well, I got into this work in a way a little bit by accident.  I mean, I think things always end up working out the way they’re meant to, but regarding how I got specifically into the prenatal side of things, it was a bit happenstance, that there was an opportunity to work with the California Diabetes in Pregnancy program, which is a state-funded organization that helps put out guidelines on diagnosing and treating gestational diabetes.  And California tends to be a bit progressive, and so their guidelines are also generally pretty progressive, although I’d say mine are a bit more so now.  But in terms of diagnosis, for sure, they are much more progressive than what the rest of the United States follows.  So I’ve worked with them.  I’ve worked with a number of different clinicians, including perinatologists who specialize in gestational diabetes, so a lot of clinical work on top of the public policy work, which then just sort of naturally led into training other professionals on managing and treating gestational diabetes.  And it’s kind of – you know, this work, from seeing it from all different angles and getting pulled into different, you know, research projects, it just kind of snowballed into the focus of my career, and particularly, I’d say my clinical work, where I was able to see, you know, how well do the nutrition guidelines work in real life versus how they proclaim to work on paper was much different than I had anticipated, and that ultimately led me to really investigate, you know, how our nutrition recommendations were set.  Like, what’s the strength of the evidence used to set those guidelines, and how can we do better?  And ultimately, that’s really the reason that my books exist.  If there was no issues with the guidelines, I wouldn’t write books.  I mean, I write them because I take a very critical look at them and personally find that the evidence, particularly the new research from the past 20 years, has very much expanded our understanding of both pregnancy guidelines as a whole but also blood sugar management in pregnancy.  And we can just do so much better and have so much better outcomes if we really put that evidence into practice.

Kristin:  Well, I am so thankful that you put those books out into the world.  My clients appreciate – I refer all of my clients to your books, so it has been very helpful to have you as a resource.  So for those of our audience members who do not understand the difference between gestational diabetes and type 1 and type 2, could you give us a quick rundown of the differences?

Lily:  Sure.  Yeah.  So gestational diabetes is diabetes that either first develops or is first recognized during pregnancy, which is a bit of a nebulous definition because it can also encompass undiagnosed diabetes that was going on preconception or undiagnosed prediabetes that was going on preconception that we’re just identifying because during pregnancy we actually are checking your blood sugar, right?  But I think the classical definition, which I think is being challenged a lot, is that it’s something that just develops during pregnancy.  It is solely a response of the weight gain, placenta changes, changes in how your body responds to and produces insulin, that makes your blood sugar higher than would be expected and more difficult to manage.  I think we’re seeing now in the research that actually quite a large proportion of the cases are actually undiagnosed prediabetes that we’re just identifying the blood sugar issue during pregnancy, which makes sense because there’s been an absolute, exponential rise in gestational diabetes in the past 20 years or so, where now it’s affecting in some populations up to 22% of pregnancies.  Pretty sure I quote an 18%.  That was a bit on the higher end from back then, but I think I quote 18% in my book, and some other sources will say it’s only 5% of pregnancies.  But it has absolutely been on the rise as we’re seeing other forms of diabetes population-wide also on the rise.  As far as how it differs from other types of diabetes, now that I’ve probably confused everybody, when you’re looking at type 2 diabetes, that is a form of diabetes that at least historically developed in adulthood, and it’s essentially your body becomes unresponsive or less responsive to insulin, a hormone that helps you manage your blood sugar, and it can progress to the point where you produce less and less insulin over time and made need supplemental insulin or medication to manage it.  However, it can also often be well-managed or at least co-managed with nutrition and lifestyle.  With type 1 diabetes, that is an autoimmune condition where your pancreas stops producing insulin or produces very, very little, to the point that you will absolutely require supplemental insulin.  So, like, insulin shots to manage your blood sugar, and that is a lifelong condition.  It’s not something that is reversable, whereas with type 2, if you catch it early enough, sometimes it actually can be.  It’s arguable to call it reversable, but it can be, like, managed to the point that your blood sugar is normal.  So is that reversal or what?  I don’t know.  But with type 1, it is something you live with for the rest of your life, and so it’s a much more challenging one to manage because you’re trying to, like, mimic a functional pancreas in your dosages of insulin, and it takes a lot more careful management.  But absolutely can also be well-managed, and there’s many people living with type 1 diabetes to show that that is the case.

Kristin:  And then for gestational diabetes, most of the time but not all, it goes away after delivering baby, correct?

Lily:  Yeah.  So in about 90% of cases, blood sugar will normalize postpartum, at least early postpartum.  However, that can almost be kind of like a honeymoon period because there is a lifetime higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes.  They call it converted to type 2 diabetes, actually.  So in about 30 to 70% of cases, type 2 diabetes will ensue in the coming 5 to 10 years after delivery.  So it is the strongest independent risk factor for developing type 2 diabetes in women that we know of, is having gestational diabetes in pregnancy.  Now, to make – of course, that sounds very doom and gloom.  But I’m always flipping it to the positive, which is that it can absolutely be prevented, as well.  I see gestational diabetes as, like, the warning light coming in on your car.  It’s like pregnancy is a stress test on your system.  Your pancreas is required to produce double or triple, sometimes even more, insulin.  You’re naturally dealing with an insulin-resistant state of pregnancy, and so it’s like, can your body, like, step up to the challenge, right?  And so if your blood sugar is becoming more difficult to manage in pregnancy, it’s actually a sign that probably you want to keep an eye on this for the rest of your life.  It’s like, okay.  There’s a bit of a weak link in my blood sugar management, and I should keep an eye on this.  And if you do keep an eye on it, in many cases, it can be sort of – you can prevent it from actually progressing to type 2 diabetes.  Like, let’s be kind to your pancreas.  Be kind to your blood sugar management system.  Oftentimes, if you can continue with the same diet and lifestyle things that helped you during pregnancy – again, it depends on when you’re actually catching this.  Like, have you been insulin-resistant for, like, 15 years before getting pregnancy, or is it literally something that developed, like, right before or during pregnancy?  Like, depending on when you’re catching it, oftentimes it can be managed and in many cases prevent that conversion to type 2 diabetes.  So I always like to throw that out there because I think people see gestational diabetes as, like, this – just a very, you know, stressful and – it’s a stressful diagnosis, right?  Since I’ve worked one on one with hundreds and hundreds of clients, I mean, you know, even as the clinician, how you approach the topic with your clients can impact how they see the diagnosis.  And it’s like, okay, we want to, yes, take this seriously and talk about how blood sugar management can impact your pregnancy outcomes and your experience of pregnancy, but we also don’t want to scare you to the point that it seems like, oh my gosh, no matter what I do, this is horrible.  And that’s actually not the case.  And a lot of times, I do hear from people that there’s a bit of a silver lining to it.  You know, wow, I had no idea that food impacted me in this way, and when I eat for better blood sugar readings, I also have so much better energy.  And I’m not, like, gaining weight as rapidly, speaking of during pregnancy, as I was before.  And I no longer have that swelling in my ankles that was going on.  Like, you just feel better, and sometimes that’s motivation enough to continue these things long-term.  And you do continue to reap the benefits well beyond post-pregnancy.

Hey.  Alyssa here.  I just wanted to hop on real quick and let everyone know about a really exciting new course that Kristin and I have been working on called Becoming.  It’s all about becoming a mother, and in six weeks online, we will be giving video lessons and live coaching calls weekly with Kristin and I, along with a private Facebook community to offer encouragement and support.  This six-week online class will actually be launching beta, which is our first launch, on March 22, with our live call on March 26.  You can get into this beta program at a really, really super reduced price.  So check us out!  We’d love to have you join us and learn all about pregnancy, birth, and early parenting and especially during this scary time of COVID.  Let us be your expert guides!  We hope to see you there!

Kristin:  So I have a client I’m working with who is about to have her glucola test, and she is very nervous.  And, you know, she’s got a healthy pregnancy, but as you said, it’s stressful.  You know, the potential diagnosis can cause stress, and during COVID, you know, women are facing so much stress as it is.  So what advice do you have for her going into her test?

Lily:  Well, there’s not a whole lot you can really do going into the test.  I give a few notes, which is, pay attention to, like, the type of the test that you’re doing.  So there’s different ways that the glucola is done.  In some countries, and in California, which may as well be its own country, I guess, they do a 75-gram glucose tolerance test that is performed fasting.  So if your doctor says, like, come in fasting, absolutely, come in fasting because that will make or break the accuracy of the test.  There are other ways of doing the test, and this is most of the rest of the United States and rarely in other parts of the world, where they do, like, a two-step method where you come in for a smaller glucola or glucose tolerance test, and then if you don’t pass that screening test or challenge test, they sometimes call it, you’ll come back for a three-hour test with a larger amount of glucose.

Kristin:  And that’s what we’re seeing in Michigan.  Yes.

Lily:  Right.  So that first step, the 50-gram glucose challenge or glucose screening, is generally not performed fasting.  So they don’t check your blood sugar before.  They only check it one hour after you’ve had your drink.  So you don’t need to come in fasting, but I would just caution people to not show up, like, immediately after having a large lunch or immediately after having a smoothie or candy in the car.  I mean, I’ve had people come up with false positives on that test because they came in right after lunch.  And if you come in on a full stomach, you are – already, your blood sugar is at its peak, and now you’re going to add insult to injury, so to speak, by adding 50 grams of sugar on top of that?  Yeah.  Your reading is probably going to come back high.  Part of the reason they do this two-step thing and that they don’t perform it fasting is that they just want to lower as many barriers as possible to actually getting people in to do the test.  However, it can result in false positives and sure, you do the three-hour screening that’s fasted afterwards; however, you have all that stress in the interim of, oh my God, do I or don’t I have it?  Which is why many people have been moving towards just doing this single-step 75-gram test which is fasted.  It’s just a bit more of control over your test.  So I’d throw that out there.  Like, don’t have a bunch of sweets right before you come in, and don’t come in immediately after a meal.  Come in, do your test two hours or so after eating, and if you’re hungry in between, have some sort of a protein snack like some nuts or something or some cheese, just so you’re not already starting your test with elevated blood sugar.  The second thing I would say is, if you err on the low carb side of things, so if you happen to just naturally eat a low-carb diet, you might consider increasing your carbohydrate intake in the week prior to the test for people who consistently eat below about 150 grams of carbohydrates per day.  You can also get a false positive on the test.  And speaking as somebody who falls into that category, that actually happened to me in my first pregnancy.  So I wrote all about it on the blog.  I was one point over, but still.  It’s important for people to know, and I was kind of doing that a bit on purpose.  You know, we’ve known since the 1960s at least that if you restrict carbohydrate intake prior to a glucose test, your pancreas is not adapted to pumping out large boluses of insulin at a time to lower a huge spike in your blood sugar very rapidly.  It’s just become adapted to pumping out just very small, tiny amounts, just sort of pulsing out small amounts of insulin as needed over the day, not huge amounts.  You give those same people a high carb diet for a week prior to a glucose test, and their body adapts, assuming they don’t have diabetes, and you don’t have that issue.  You don’t have the false positives.  So the same is true with general population and pregnancy, as well.  If you eat low carb, your body’s just not adapted to that at this moment.  Now, if you’re somebody who always eats high carb, you should have no issues passing the glucose test.  You know, unless there’s obviously an issue with your blood sugar management.  But for people who are low carb, you know, if your body has the capacity to adapt to it, then you will know if you eat high carb in the week prior to the test.  That should eliminate your concern about a false positive for the most part.  So I always do mention that because the guidance on eating more carbs prior to a glucose tolerance test was eliminated, I believe, in the 90s, and that’s because most people are already eating well over 200 grams or more of carbohydrates per day because that’s what our dietary guidelines tell us to do, and we really didn’t need people eating more bread and more juice and more cereal prior to doing these tests.  But for people who – now that keto and low carb are a little more popular, it has returned to being important to at least mention that.

Kristin:  Yes, that’s very helpful.  So for our listeners and clients who do test positive for gestational diabetes, what tips do you have for nutritional management?

Lily:  So first things first is, you know, everybody’s body responds to food differently.  So there are some rules that would apply to anybody in that the way our body processes carbohydrates versus protein versus fat and how those impact blood sugar.  There’s some constants there, right?  But as far as the absolute details and how much of all of those foods you can consume and expect a certain blood sugar reading, that actually comes down to you testing your own blood sugar and fine-tuning your diet in response to what you’re seeing in your post-meal blood sugar readings.  So the most important thing is that you get a blood sugar meter and start testing to see where you’re at.  Otherwise, we have really – we’re flying blind.  So I can give general guidance, but until you have those blood sugar readings, it can be a bit challenging to know for sure what you should be doing.  Now, of course, generally speaking, it is very helpful to understand that certain foods raise your blood sugar more than others.  So carbohydrates are the foods that break down into individual sugars in your body and then raise your blood sugar or your blood glucose, whereas protein and fat do not necessarily raise your blood sugar.  There are some nit-picky details and exceptions to the rule, but generally, protein and fat just keep your blood sugar stable but they don’t spike it like carbohydrates do.  So the key with understanding this, and I do this is Real Food for Gestational Diabetes, is I just break it down: these foods raise your blood sugar.  These foods don’t.  And so focus on not going overboard on the foods that do spike your blood sugar.  So your carbohydrates are your grains and starches, potatoes, sweet potatoes, fruit.  Milk and yogurt will have a little bit of carbohydrates.  Of course, they’re also balanced with some fat and protein.  And legumes – again, they have carbohydrates.  They also have protein.  They have fiber.  So they’re a bit of a better source.  But we’re usually looking at grains, starches, fruits, anything with sugar, would be your main things that you want to be like, okay, let me just tap the brakes a little bit on those foods, and when I do consume them, consume them in a reasonable quantity in combination with foods that don’t spike my blood sugar.  So your protein-containing foods and fat-containing foods would fall into that category.  And that basic understanding of just splitting up foods into elevates your blood sugar / does not elevate your blood sugar can be really, really helpful for people to just simplify things.  I call it no naked carbs.  So don’t have your carbohydrates solo by themselves because you’ll get a larger spike in your blood sugar than if you combined that carbohydrate-containing food with some fat and protein.  So a perfect example of this is an apple, which is of course a healthy, whole food, right?  However, an apple is primarily carbohydrates.  Sure, it has some fiber, and that helps blunt your blood sugar spike a bit compared to apple juice, for example.  However, if you were that apple, again in its whole form would be ideal, right, versus juice – if you combine it with something that has fat and protein, like, say, some almond butter or peanut butter, you’re going to significantly blunt your blood sugar response to that food, so your blood sugar won’t spike as high, which means your pancreas doesn’t have to pump out as much insulin, either, to match it.  And when you don’t spike as high, it’s kind of like a roller coaster.  You don’t drop as low.  And this is very helpful for managing your hunger and cravings, as well as your blood sugar.  So that would be my main recommendation.  And then you can fine-tune the amount of carbohydrates you can get away with by checking your blood sugar after you eat and seeing where you’re at.  Are you falling within range?  Are you coming in a bit above range?  And that can help you fine-tune things.

Kristin:  And do you recommend that our listeners find a dietician to work with, or can they manage this, again, based on how their levels are on their own?

Lily: I mean, in an ideal world, I think it is helpful to work with a dietician or diabetes educator or any clinician who has a lot of experience with gestational diabetes because there’s just so much nuance to it.  I mean, coming down to even how you check your blood sugar, you know, you can mess that up.  You use a soap that has sugar-containing ingredients.  There’s all sorts of gluco-ingredients in soaps and lotions and things.

Kristin:  I didn’t even think of that.

Lily:  Yeah.  I mean, it happened to me.  You understand a lot when you do things firsthand, so I’ve been a bit of a guinea pig on myself.  I had seen this with clients before, as well, and you do – you know, as a certified diabetes educator, you do learn about all this stuff, as well, but you see it in real life when people are like, but I only had XYZ food, which doesn’t spike me, but my blood sugar came out 20 points higher than it should!  First of all, you have people, if they get an unexpected high reading, wash their hands again, test again to just try to verify if it’s accurate, because meters are not perfect.  But there can be so many things.  You can have a meter that is not super accurate, and sadly, there are some brands of meters that aren’t super accurate because their tolerance for variance is based on type 2 diabetes levels, where with gestational diabetes, you’re expected to keep your blood sugar in a much narrower range.  So if you have a meter that is reading 10% higher, if you’re a 50-year-old man with type 2 diabetes and you only have to keep your blood sugar under 140 or you’re aiming for 180 or something – sometimes the ranges are much more liberal, depending on who you’re working with – that’s no big deal.  But if you have gestational diabetes and you’re trying to keep your blood sugar below, say, 120 after meals, than a 10% variance in the wrong direction is a big problem.  So sometimes it comes down to, is your meter accurate?  Are you test strips expired or not?  Are you cleaning your hands properly before testing?  So I gave you the example of soap, but say you just had an orange, and you have a bit of orange juice left on your finger.  That will read as sugar on a blood sugar test.  So you prick your finger, squeeze out a little drop of blood, test, and it comes out unusually high.  That can be a problem.  So some of this nit-picky little stuff, it can be helpful to have somebody there to guide you so it’s a little less scary.  And especially in those first two weeks after diagnosis, I think that’s when it’s the most raw and the most concerning and the most “I don’t know what I’m doing.”  So if it is possible to get a referral from your provider, you can do that.  I have a free video series on gestational diabetes on my website.  Of course, my book, Real Food for Gestational Diabetes, does walk you through this, and I intentionally wrote that book with as simple language as possible to just kind of cut through all the noise so you can focus on what actually matters and not get distracted by a bunch of extraneous details, so that can certainly be helpful.  But there is always, I think, a time and a place for one on one guidance on this if you can get it.  So I’ll throw that out there.  There are, I know, people who just don’t have necessarily those types of providers or providers who maybe are up to date on some of the nutrition information that I give out, so they might go to a dietician and get really not fantastic dietary advice, like very high carbohydrate diet.  I mean, that’s the reason I had to write my book, because the current guidelines are just so far off from what actually works that, you know, I do have my book available.  I also have a paid online course.  We have a private Facebook group where people can ask questions of me directly and get support from other members.  I try to have as many options from free to, you can get the e-book for 10 bucks to a course to just give you as many options as possible because I want to meet everyone where they’re at.

Kristin:  So what is your advice as far as minerals and supplements with gestational diabetes?

Lily:  Like, which specific minerals?

Kristin:  So just looking at if they’re adding supplements to their diet.  What is good?  What isn’t?  You know, outside of the prenatal vitamin that they’re taking.  Should they be doing anything different once they’ve received the diagnosis?

Lily:  Gotcha.  So as far as supplements, I mean, I do think for most people it makes sense to be on a prenatal vitamin.  I would check, if you’re having a screening for anemia, check to see if you actually need the iron because sometimes too much iron can be a bit inflammatory and create more blood sugar issues.  So check for anemia before you jump for a prenatal that includes iron.  You might want to opt for an iron-free one.   I am just much more of a fan of people getting their iron from food that has all of the complementary co-factors for you to use it.  The type in most prenatals on the market, unfortunately, is just not super well-absorbed and sometimes kind of adds fuel to the inflammatory fire.  As far as additional supplements, we often find magnesium deficiency is more common when there’s blood sugar issues present, so that as a supplement, I think, is very helpful.  Minerals usually are more bulky ingredients for prenatal supplements, so most of them, unless it’s like a multiple capsules per day kind of a formula, just do not have very much minerals at all.  So somewhere between 150 to 300mg of magnesium a day can be really helpful.  Magnesium glycinate is the form that I often recommend.  The glycinate means the magnesium is bound to an amino acid called glycine, which has its own beneficial effects on blood sugar management, and it’s also just very well-absorbed, so you don’t have this GI distress, diarrhea sort of reaction that some people get to magnesium supplements, especially when they’re high-dose.  You can also do a foot soak or a warm bath with Epsom salts in it, and you absorb the magnesium through your skin that way, so that’s always helpful.  Another one would be vitamin D.  A lot of prenatals do not include enough vitamin D.  I just put out a blog post about vitamin D in pregnancy on my blog if people want to read that for more.  But much of the research surrounding that nutrient in pregnancy shows that you need actually up to 10 times more than what the current recommendation for vitamin D is.   So I do recommend, if you do not live in a southern, sunny climate where you get lots of sun exposure without sunscreen on, on a regular basis, which is much of the country that’s not possible, then I do recommend supplemental vitamin D.  And so looking at how much your prenatal has and trying to get around 4,000 IUs per day can be really helpful.  We actually have research studies showing that vitamin D deficiency is more common in gestational diabetes, but also the more severe the vitamin D deficiency, the worse blood sugar readings tend to be, and actually that if you supplement it and correct vitamin D deficiency, the blood sugar readings improve.  Same goes for magnesium, by the way.  And then I’ll add just one more.  I mean, there’s other supplements that could be helpful in pregnancy, but specifically for the blood sugar conversation, another nutrient we’re getting a lot more data on is inositol, which is a B vitamin-like compound.  It’s actually used pretty often in fertility and PCOS, which the majority of PCOS cases have some component of insulin-resistance, and it’s actually a risk factor for the development of gestational diabetes.  So we have all of this positive research on inositol for PCOS and for infertility.  We’re now having studies done on inositol for pregnancy and specifically diabetes in pregnancy, showing pretty positive results.  And so they typically do a dosage of 4 grams, which is also 4000 milligrams per day, of myo-inositol.  So that’s something that you can discuss with your provider.  We have a couple studies now on fasting blood sugar and other markers of insulin resistance.  It’s a very safe supplement, very safe.  There has been absolutely no animal or human studies indicating any sort of toxicity in pregnancy including in the very delicate stages of embryogenesis in really early pregnancy, so that’s really reassuring.  If anything, it’s really been overwhelmingly all positive.  So I do throw that one out there because that’s probably one of the more promising and more well-researched nutrients that can impact blood sugar.  You can go on – I can probably list, like, a dozen more nutrients that also impact blood sugar, and the hope is that most of those would be covered by your food intake and also your prenatal, but you can get kind of nitty-gritty on all this stuff if you really want to.

Kristin:  Sure.  So I’d love to hear – this has been very helpful.  Love to hear any last tips that you have for our listeners, and that could be anything from, again, managing gestational diabetes to stress management to postpartum care.

Lily: Oh, gosh, you give me a lot of good leads to go on with that.

Kristin:  So wherever you’d like to go with that!

Lily:  Well, maybe I’ll give a little nod to stress for a minute, and then I probably have to talk postpartum, as well.  So stress is an underrecognized factor that plays a role in your blood sugar.  So your body has a very real physiological response to stress or perceived stress that often makes your blood sugar go up.  So I think its easy as practitioners for us to just sort of dismiss stress and just focus on the knowns of food and movement and exercise, things like that.  But you absolutely see a really significant response to stress, whether that’s personal work stress or even if it’s immune stress.  If you get a cold, your body is under stress, and your blood sugar is elevated as a response.  You see it firsthand for anyone who has worn a continuous glucose monitor, which is probably not many people listening.  But I know I have, if I have a stressful phone call, and a continuous glucose monitor, you can get real-time readings on your blood sugar, and it graphs out your 24-hour blood sugar readings on a chart.  You can see it.  Like, whoa.  My blood sugar spiked 10 points and remained elevated for 30 minutes as a response to that stressful interpersonal interaction.  So anything you can do to just kind of stay calm and even-keeled is absolutely also helpful for your blood sugar.  I don’t think we can discount that.  And then to just give a quick note on postpartum, I’m just such an advocate for a nourished and slow postpartum, and I think it’s really hard as a first-time mom to, you know, even imagine or put much focus on postpartum because it’s all about the big event of birth.  And I know I fell victim to that, as well, my first time around.  I probably should have read a book on postpartum or something.  But you’re so focused on birth.  How can I create the best birth?  I want it to go like this.  Birth is like, at best, you know, it can be a couple hours.  It can be maybe a couple days depending on the circumstances.  But postpartum is a very long period of time, and I think our culture sees it maybe as a couple weeks, up to six weeks, right?  That’s when you go back to your provider and get a check-up to see that you healed okay.  But it is much more than two weeks or six weeks.  It is kind of a long haul healing process.  And a lot of our western society doesn’t really – we’ve lost touch with our postpartum traditions, where many other places in the world still have those intact, and there is extra attention to care and nutrition and other people coming in to care for the new mother, especially in the first month to six weeks.  It’s often 40 days.  And if you do that, having really been intentional about postpartum my second time around – it’s not that I didn’t have a good postpartum the first time.  I felt like I did pretty well, all things considered.  The second time was just so much more easeful.  Like, just everything about it was so much better because I prepared for postpartum.  I prepared meals in the freezer.  I had my mom come up and stay with us.  I really tried to embody and bring in as many of those practices that these other cultures – I mean, it’s so strange.  You go all across the world, and they’re very similar.  You know, like, how do they all – it’s all like similar types of foods with broths and stews and warming foods and teas.  And it’s the same amount of time.  It’s the same, bringing in other women, especially older women who are mothers or grandmothers themselves to care for you.  It’s like, how is it the same in Mexico as it is in the Middle East as it is in China as it is in Indonesia as it is in Mexico and Brazil and Africa?  How is it the same?  It’s all, like, very, very similar.  I think we have to give some credence to, there’s some wisdom there that we should honor.

Kristin:  There certainly is.  Mothering the mother is definitely something that is ignored in the US, and other cultures embrace it.  That’s why our postpartum doulas do not just work within the first 30 to 40 days.  We work with families through the first year.

Lily:  Oh, that’s fantastic.  Yes.  Yes.  Because often you come out of those first three months a bit in a fog, and you’re expecting it to be easier.  And a lot of things are easier.  Things are less intense, but it’s also still hard.  It’s still a lot.  You know, it continues to be a lot.  I have an 18-month old now, my second, and it continues to be a lot long-term.  It gradually does get easier, but just building in the expectation of having help and having support and having that extra focus on nourishment goes a really long way.  So I think I do a better job in my second book, Real Food for Pregnancy, of really emphasizing the postpartum part.  I snuck in a whole long chapter on it because I started writing that book when I was 10 months out with my first.  Whoa, postpartum is important!  I’m going to put it in a pregnancy book because I know I didn’t seek out – as proactive as I am, I didn’t seek out that information when I was pregnant, and I really should have.  So, here.  I’ll throw it into this book.

Kristin:  I love that chapter!  I’m so glad you included it, so thank you.  So how can our listeners and doula clients find you and your books?  I’d love to – all of the different ways you mentioned, videos and one-on-one courses.  Share all of the ways we can connect with you, please, Lily.

Lily:  Sure.  So you can find me on my main website.  That has my blog.  It links out to my books and where you can find those.  It has a lot of different freebies, so you can download the first chapter of Real Food for Pregnancy for free.  You can check out the free video series on gestational diabetes.  There’s a couple others up there.  So that’s kind of the main hub.  As far as courses – at the moment, I’m not seeing one-on-one clients, but I am still supporting course participants in the Real Food for Gestational Diabetes course.  And that’s fully online, and we also, like I said, have a private Facebook group.  So I do office hours in there every week.  Lots of questions on, especially, fasting blood sugar.  So I go into depth on that.  I have a bunch of bonus presentations included in the course.  I just kind of keep adding on to it.  I’ve been running it since 2015.  There was no course on gestational diabetes out there at the time.  I don’t really know if there’s any others, actually.  I haven’t looked.

Kristin:  I don’t know of any, so – there could be, but…

Lily:  Yeah.  Especially on the client level.  I think there’s some on just teaching practitioners sort of the basics on it, and I do, by the way, have a webinar on that over at the Women’s Health Nutrition Academy.  But as far as supporting clients directly, that’s definitely the place to go.  I have a – just did a big presentation on postpartum recovery after gestational diabetes, so lots on this, concerns about type 2 diabetes and when to get screened and what to do, a bunch of information on that.  I have advanced training on lowering fasting blood sugar with food and lifestyle tips.  There’s a lot of things in there that I just really don’t include anywhere else in my work, so that is really geared directly for clients themselves, although I do have a couple health practitioners that sneak their way into the doors.  As far as – let’s see.  Social media, I am most active these days, although not incredibly active, on Instagram, and my handle is the same as my website.  So it’s @lilynicholsrdn.  And I’m about to launch my own online bookshop.  My books are available on Amazon and many different bookstores.  However, I’m also going to be selling, at least Real Food for Pregnancy, direct from my own site.  So if people want to purchase that, for paperback purchases, we’ll be shipping to the US, and every paperback purchased will come with a free copy of a new e-cookbook that I’m putting out that has 30 recipes following all the principles I outline in my books, but they’re not found in my books.  So 30 new recipes out there.  That will be your – it’s available for purchase separately, but as a thank-you for people who go out of their way to purchase a paperback copy from me directly, I’ll be bundling in that e-cookbook for free, as well.  So that should be launching soon, early March.  So you can check that out.

Kristin:  Fantastic.  Well, thank you for joining us today!  Appreciate your time, Lily!

Lily:  Thank you so much!

Thanks for listening to Ask the Doulas.  If you like this podcast, please subscribe and give us a 5-star review.  Thank you.  Remember, these moments are golden.

 

Today Amber Brant of The Coziness Consultant talks with Alyssa about how new moms can create a calm space in their homes in the midst of chaos.  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Welcome.  You’re listening to Ask the Doulas, a podcast where we talk to experts from all over the country about topics related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and early parenting.  Let’s chat!

Alyssa:  Hi, Amber.  Good to see you!

Amber:   Hi!  Good to see you, too!

Alyssa:  Zoom glitches and all, great to see you!

Amber:   I know.  Third time’s a charm, right?

Alyssa:  Yes.  I know.  We’re going to roll with this, and I think people understand now that Zoom is not perfect.  So we wanted to talk a little bit today about creating a calm space.  You wrote a piece for our newsletter last month that was about the importance of having a proper environment, a calm environment, especially, for parents and especially for new moms with little babies at home.  Why don’t you first tell people, Amber, about The Coziness Consultant, because that’s what you do, and then it will tell them why I’m talking to you about this topic.

Amber:   So a few years ago – well, it’s been six or so years ago now – when we bought our house, people would come over, and every time they would walk in, they would say, oh, this is so cozy!  When I buy a house, can you help me?  And it was one of those things that, you know, after I heard it for so long, it almost got comical, where people would come to visit us for the first time, and before they’d open their mouth, I would look at Kyle, my husband, and we would just laugh because it was like, oh, they’re going to say it again!  One of those things where it was like, gosh, you know, one day – maybe there’s something to this.  And so I started pursuing helping people interior decorate on the side and then ended up getting certification for it and really pursuing what I have called myself, the business, The Coziness Consultant.  It’s a little different than a lot of people who do interior design or interior decorating because, obviously, people want their homes to be beautiful, and I want to help them get the style, the aesthetic that they’re going for, but I also really believe that our spaces should reflect who we are and our values, but they should also help us live the best that we can in whatever stage of life we’re in.  So it’s about helping people think really intuitively and intentionally about how they use their space and how they want to use their space or, you know, if they have small children, what’s practical and helps them be able to keep toys under control or keep furniture clean or whatever.  How do they achieve, you know, living well in their space now, and then how does that sort of age with them?  And kind of helping steer them right toward the correct priorities and also just realizing, like, there’s just some things you can’t do at this stage of your life with your house and your family, but in a few years, you can.  And so let’s figure out how to make it the best we can right now.

Alyssa:  I think that’s great, that you probably kind of have to get to know that individual family.  How many kids do you have?  How big or small is your house?  And speaking of a new mom with a new baby, it would be really important, I think, for you to help with that space, because she’s a new mom and doesn’t necessarily know what she needs in that space.  And you, you’ve been through this before.  I’ve nursed before.  I’ve had to pump before . Like, here’s what you – you’re probably going to be able to help them create this space with the things that they don’t even know they need to organize yet.  You know, like if you were sitting there pumping, and then you realize you don’t – you’re getting ready to pump.  You’ve already gotten your shirt off.  Baby just went down for a nap, and now you realize you don’t have any clean pump accessories.  So, you know, having a spare set of pump accessories that you keep next to this station or whatever.  Things that they might not even know to think about.

Amber:   Right, or baby is super upset, and you really need to nurse.  You know, you went to the grocery store, and you were stuck out longer than you thought, and you get home and, you know, baby’s upset and you – yeah.  You’re scrambling.  You get your coat off and you get ready, and you have no nursing pillow or no nipple shields.  And I think we’ve all been there.  And no matter how well you prepare your space, you’re still going to have moments like that, but there are some really practical ways to ensure that you have what you need because all of those things, right, like any of those little stressors, they seem like little, but they can impede your letdown, or you’re emotionally so – the baby’s been upset and crying in the car, and you’re in traffic, and by the time you get home, it’s like even trying to relax enough to have a letdown to nurse – sometimes it’s hard.  And so if you can design your spaces even knowing that you’re going to have those moments that are less than ideal, at least you’ll be set up for success.  And you’ve practiced relaxing enough in these spaces and repeating this, you know, practice that hopefully you can relax and calm down.  The space can help you.

Alyssa:  I like the idea of making a space where you either nurse or pump that is almost like your calm space instead of the opposite.  We think about, oh, God, it’s time to pump again, oh, oh my God, we just nursed.  I have to go nurse you again, and I have to go to this space.  And you’re already in this negative head space, which like you said, then affects your mental wellness.  It could make it hard to have a letdown.  Babies can sense things, especially feelings, and then when your baby’s upset, it’s often harder to get them to nurse effectively, so it’s just this spiral, right?  So if you can have this calm space where you’re like, okay.  I get to dim the lights.  I know you’re really into lighting a candle; let’s light a candle, or maybe you turn the diffuser on 30 minutes before you know you have to go in, and it’s this calm space that you can enter and have a peaceful 20, 30 minutes with your baby, and look at it that way instead of it being a stressful time or a stressful space.

Amber:   One thing, too, when we’re talking about those little things that can chip away or grate at it.  I’d mentioned to you before, you know, we’ve all been in the car and there’s that one full water bottle that keeps rattling around on the floor, and you think, oh, I need to take that inside, or oh, I need to throw that away, or oh, when I get gas I’m going to throw that out.  But you don’t do it, and for, like, a week, every time you’re in the car, you’re like, oh, that water bottle!  Those are things that are small but they do just kind of stab you.  It’s annoying, and it takes away too much of your head space.  And I think not having organized pumping stations or designated space that’s a calm space where you always nurse – that’s going to have the same effect.  If it’s like every time you sit down and you’re ready to go and your nipples are sore but you’re like, oh, I don’t have the shield – those are the little annoyances that actually have a much larger impact on your psychological health, and especially when you’re hormonal and emotional, it’s hard.  Those things have a bigger toll than you realize.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  All those little minor annoyances become real big when it’s 3:00 in the morning and you’ve only gotten sleep in 90 minute chunks all night long.  Sleep deprivation can just kind of exponentially make all these things feel monumental instead of trivial.

Amber:   But I think, too, when we’re talking about that mental peace, I think – I’m really sensitive also to including moms that are exclusive pumpers because I think – you know, my daughter was born early, and she just had a really hard time.  She would latch, but she wasn’t sucking.  So I had to pump so much at the beginning.  And a few weeks in, I just felt resentful.  You know, I saw the pump as utilitarian.  It was like – I didn’t feel like it was a bonding activity as much.  And I think that’s another reason why creating kind of a repeatable practice or some of these things we’re talking about, like using your senses, your five senses, to create a space where you pump – that can help that oxytocin release and facilitate that sense of bonding a little bit more when you’re not physically breastfeeding.  I think that’s really important.  And that’s what I had written about for you, that idea of using the five senses to design your space.   And this could apply to pumping or breastfeeding, really, but kind of going through a mental checklist.  You know, if you have a space that’s not working, or you’re regularly just sitting in front of the TV to pump or nurse, or you’re in the middle of the night just scrolling on your phone while you’re nursing – if that’s working for you, it’s not really worth changing, but for the most part, I think those things make it really hard to go back to sleep afterward, and maybe you have trouble getting the letdown.  I think going through that checklist of your senses: what are you seeing?  Are you in a space where there’s a ton of clutter, or is it a cozy room that you recently painted with a fresh coat of pain or a piece of art that you love on the wall?  Is there dim lighting or is it dark?  What do you smell?  Like you said, having either a scented candle or you’re diffusing something in the air.  You know, you’re not next to the diaper pail.  What do you see?  What do you smell?  What are you touching, feeling?  Is it important to have your slippers on?  Are your feet cold, or having a cozy blanket there or a good lumbar pillow support?  You know, all of those things, I think.  And thinking about taste, too.  Is your water bottle nearby?  If you’re getting up during the night, do you need – I remember at times, like 4:00 a.m. feedings or pumps, I would have fresh fruit cut up in the fridge, and I would have a few bites of fruit or a granola bar.  And also, what are you hearing?  Is there a noise machine or silence or a little water feature?  Or maybe a medication app on your phone or relaxation.  Any of those things, if you have a space that isn’t working, I think that’s a good place to start is to check in with each of those five senses and figure out how you can make tweaks to your space to make it more calming and relaxing.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  It’s a great place to start, and some of the senses might be more triggering for others.  Like you said, is your chair right next to that diaper pail, and every time you sit down, you’re smelling dirty diapers and then you’re trying to be calm and bond with your baby?  And when you eat that food, now the food tastes gross because you’re smelling poop.  You know, and for me, smell is a big thing.  I love – to me, diffusors with the right scent is just so calming.  And obviously, you have to be sensitive with a baby, and they could have – it has to be very mild, I guess, is my point.

Amber:   Yeah.  What are your triggers, and then the flip side, what brings you joy or relaxation in your every day life, and making sure that there’s some representation of that in your pumping.  I think, too, also just being aware of your body in the space because I think, you know, like let’s say if you have a clog or you’ve been hunched over and so you’ve got that one spot in your back that always hurts or whatever.  I think we’re so inclined to think, like, oh, baby needs this.  Oh, it’s time to pump.  We’re not often aware of our own physical needs, and then we also don’t feel like there’s enough time to fix that need.  And so it gets into this space of also realizing your capacity.  For somebody who – I mean, obviously, now we have Shipt and we have options like that, if you need baby Tylenol or nipple cream.  But, yeah, anytime you sit down, you immediately remember, oh, I didn’t do that thing that I needed for my own body, or I’m out of diapers or whatever.  Having somebody that you can, say, right then text or holler out to, hey, put on the list, XYZ, we need this.  Or I need you to run to the store.  Or can you just help me?  Can you bring me an extra pillow, instead of struggling through that pumping session wishing you had that thing, advocating for yourself and taking care of and being sensitive to even those small needs that you kind of just keeping letting go unnoticed because you’ve got things to do.

Hey, Alyssa here.  I just wanted to hop on real quick and let everyone know about a really exciting new course that Kristen and I have been working on called Becoming.  It’s all about becoming a mother, and in six weeks online, we will be giving video lessons and live coaching calls weekly with Kristen and I, along with a private Facebook community to offer encouragement and support.  This six-week online class will actually be launching beta, which is our first launch, on March 22 with our live call on March 26.  You can get into this beta program at a really, really super reduced price, so check us out.  We’d love to have you join us and learn all about pregnancy, birth, and early parenting, and especially during this scary time of COVID.  Let us be your expert guides! www.thebecomingcourse.com/join.   We hope to see you there!

Alyssa:  Lists have never been so important to me until after I had a baby.  Your mind – you know, they call it pregnancy brain, but I don’t believe that.  I think it’s mom brain.  It just never goes away.  I’m always focused on, what does she need, and what do I have to do for her?  And it just changes.  You know, now she’s almost 8, and it’s what school stuff does she need?  It’s snowing out; did she grab her boots?  It’s not me.  Like, did I remember my gloves?  No, did she remember hers?

Amber:   It’s true.  I know.  And it’s that thing.  We do it in other ways, right?  Like for me, my daughter is three and a half now.  Anytime she says something funny or she’s doing a new thing, I try to grab my phone and put it in a note right then because I know two minutes from now, I’ll literally be like, oh, shoot.  What was it that she said?  And I think having that kind of attention to your child, obviously, is necessary, and once that switch is flipped in your brain, it’s like it never shuts off.  But you always are secondary for your own needs, and I think if you keep bumping up against a frustration every time you pump, or when baby gets up from a nap and you change their diaper and you’re nursing them, and you don’t have what you need in the nursery at that minute because it’s downstairs, those are really frustrating things.  So I think if you can make a mental note or text someone or ask for help – and make sure you have those stations.  Make sure you have things set up more than one place so that you can try to eliminate some of those simple frustrations.  I think overall, incrementally, it will really, really help.  I mentioned the difference between feeling, some of this practice, and utilitarian and necessary versus bonding, and I think any time you can think about your spaces as kind of this checklist of, yes, thinking about your space in terms of those five senses, and also how are you orienting that space so that it’s pulling on that emotional part of you, the love hormones, and helping you get in a mindset where you feel bonded and you’re helping your body relax and have that letdown, but also for your own piece of mind, and taking the time to invest in your space even though you have very little capacity, knowing that that’s an investment in you and your baby and your emotional health and your mothering, by taking the time to do those things, even if they seem simple.

Alyssa:  We know for a mom who had to exclusively pump or pump for a long time like you did, and like you said, it felt very utilitarian – like, creating a space where maybe they, when they’re sitting in that chair pumping, they’re looking at a photo of their baby right when they were first born, or things that will help you get that oxytocin going that you’re not getting from physically having your baby skin to skin.  Thinking ahead about things like that, and not just sitting there, dreading it, looking at your phone and wondering why you can’t get a letdown, but actually thinking about your baby and looking at photos.  A photo on the wall of your baby, or your whole family.  Things like that, to make this space just more cozy and less utilitarian.

Amber:   And I think, too, for me it goes back, it’s that personal piece of taking care of yourself because I was nursing her, but I was also pumping a lot, but I dealt with a lot of clogged ducts and I had a lot of pain, and she had an undiagnosed lip and tongue tie until she was eight months old, so I was doing all of those things with an intense amount of pain.  And so I think for me, there was – a part of it, too, was a resentment toward the whole thing because things were not right for me, and I was having trouble with people hearing me when I kept saying to my pediatrician and to whoever, I think she has a lip and tongue tie, and they would say, well, her latch looks good, and I’m like, well, I really hurt!  I think finding somebody who would listen to me and help solve some of those problems, that also was a huge piece, because even if I had my spaces totally oriented – and I did have stations set up for success – I was still needing special care and needing to be heard to fix that circumstance, too.

Alyssa:  Right.  I think a big piece of this is, as you had mentioned, just ask for help.  Whether you’re sitting in that chair and need a pillow and you need to text your partner or spouse in the other room, it’s asking for help.  But we so often feel like we’re putting someone else out.  And then if you know, it is not supposed to feel like this when I nurse.  This is huge pain.  You have to find someone to help you!

Amber:   Yeah.  And little shout-out to our doctor, that having someone finally take me serious and refer us was just lifechanging because at that point, it was eight months in, but I nursed her until she was 16 months old after that.  So the literal first half was pretty rough, and the second half was really good.  Taking care of me and having someone hear me made all the difference.

Alyssa:  So if any new mamas want to get ahold of you – let’s say someone’s pregnant and hears this and wants to put a space together, or they just had their baby and need help with space or they have a houseful of kids, who knows – tell them how to get ahold of you, but also how are you working right now during a pandemic?  Are you doing virtual consults?  Are you doing some in-person?  What does that look like right now?

Amber:  So the best place to find me is my website, and I’m active on Instagram @thecozinessconsultant, and the same on Facebook.  The quickest way to get a response from me is a DM on Instagram.  And I am doing some in person with masks and socially distanced, but I have done much more virtual.  I had done a few virtual appointments before the pandemic, but it wasn’t something that I was putting a lot of effort into because it’s obviously easier to be in a space, and I like interacting with the people and being able to observe them in their home and with their family.  It also gives me clues of recommendations I can make.  But since the pandemic has kind of forced us to be a little bit more creative, I’ve found that it actually works really, really well for consultations.  So my standard consultation is two hours, and that was kind of a trial by error.  I only started at an hour, and we were always pushing an hour and a half.  It never felt like enough.  Yeah, if anyone wants to reach me, social media or my website is the best.

Alyssa:  Awesome.  Thanks for doing this!

Amber:   Happy to!  Thanks for having me!

Today Kristin talks to Jenn Gavin, owner of A Pleasant Dog in Grand Rapids, MI about when to prepare your dogs for the arrival of a new baby.  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa:  Welcome.  You’re listening to Ask the Doulas, a podcast where we talk to experts from all over the country about topics related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and early parenting.  Let’s chat!

Kristin:  Well, we are thrilled to have Jenn Gavin join us today.  Jenn is another female entrepreneur in the local Grand Rapids area, and Jenn owns A Pleasant Dog.  Welcome, Jenn!

Jenn:  Thanks for having me!

Kristin:  So feel free to fill our listeners in about your business, and I’d also like to hear a bit about how you’re adapting to COVID.

Jenn:  Sure!  I am the founder of A Pleasant Dog.  We are a local dog training facility.  We’ve been in business seven years now, and we really cater to — especially to families with dogs living in the city of Grand Rapids.  We focus our practice solely on using positive reinforcement to train and modify behavior in dogs.  We have a school for dogs on Knapp Street on the northeast side of Grand Rapids, and we offer everything from puppy 101 and puppy kindergarten classes to more advanced training and help with behavior consults for dogs who are struggling with problem behavior.  So that’s a little bit about us.

Kristin:  That’s fantastic.  I know you’ve posted quite a bit about behavior issues during COVID because families are home more?

Jenn:  Yeah.  It’s really — you know, my part of the practice, I’ve got 8 really talented trainers working with me, but the particular cases that I see are those cases where dogs are really struggling either with their people or other dogs or with stimuli that they see in the community.  And I think — I saw a statistic somewhere that there’s been a 20 percent increase in bite cases since COVID started, and I think it’s kind of been a challenging time for a lot of people who are living with dogs who maybe were a little bit uneasy living with their people or living with children and now that everybody’s home all the time, there’s kind of a spotlight on those issues.  So we’re seeing a lot of really stressful situations that we’re trying to help our clients and their dogs through.  If anything, COVID has made our practice much, much busier, not only because of an uptick in behavior issues, but also because, boy, it seems like everybody wants a dog now that they’re home.

Kristin:  I’ve noticed that!  So many of my friends have gotten puppies in this last year.

Jenn:  Yeah.  So we are busier than ever, but you know, it’s been a really kind of fun time, too, because our practice has expanded from just seeing the occasional behavior consultation or a client virtually who was outside of our area to really, we’re seeing a lot, a lot, a lot of clients virtually, and almost all of our behavior cases at least start out with an initial virtual consultation.

Kristin:  That’s great.  So for our listeners who live in other states or cities, they can contact you and have virtual consultations, correct?

Jenn:  That’s right.  I see a lot of — like I said, I see a lot of challenging behavior cases, and I’ve always had the possibility of seeing those cases virtually, so it’s just a nice opportunity to practice that, to help more people.

Kristin:  Are you doing anything in person at the moment?

Jenn:  We sure are.  All of our drop-off services that we offer — so we have a puppy day camp where, if you’ve got a COVID puppy and you’re trying to socialize them, you can drop them off with us for a half-day camp where we introduce them to a variety of novel stimuli and play with other dogs.  Sometimes we have kids come in or different types of vehicles, things like that, so that we can get them used to things that they might see when they’re grownups that they might not see if they’re in quarantine with their owners.

Kristin:  That makes sense.

Jenn:  Yeah.  All of our group classes are offered in person.  We’ve just reduced the number of people who are allowed in the class to four, so we only have four puppies and four people, and we’re using social distancing and requiring masks.  And then we are also still offering our house call services, as long as, you know, we’re respecting social distancing and masking requirements.  So we’ve kind of slowly ramped back up to offering the bulk of our services in person, but we also, like I said, offer almost all of our services virtually, including our group classes.

Kristin:  So I get asked, as our clients are preparing for a transition, whether it’s their first baby or adding a baby to the family, we talk about pets.  And I often send them your way.  But I’d love to hear your tips on dog training specifically to prepare a family for a new baby and also, you know, just any advice you have for expecting families, even beyond the training with the change, not only for the family, but also for the dog.

Jenn:  Thank you.  I appreciate it!  We do see your referrals, and we appreciate seeing them.  You know, I think the tricky thing is, a lot of people are worried about how they’re going to introduce the dog and the baby after baby is born, whether baby comes home from the hospital or the birth center or is born at home.  And that’s really not the trickiest part.  I think it’s really important to take an honest look at how your dog feels about children, babies, novel stimuli, before your baby comes home, and to begin to prepare a plan for your dog to be comfortable with your baby or your child before they get home.  And, you know, everybody knows that you’re not supposed to leave dogs and children unattended together, but how that practically plays out takes a little bit of finagling.  I think it’s easy in the newborn phase when you get done feeding your baby and you’re going to go jump in the shower and you can just pop baby in with you or stick baby in a carrier and shut the bathroom door.  But it’s useful to have a dog who can settle either in their own room or in a crate or behind a baby gate so that you can have a physical separation between baby and dog when you can’t directly supervise them.  So that’s a skill that I really like to teach well before baby’s going to come home.  If you have a dog who isn’t accustomed to being crated or stuck behind a baby gate when they can’t be supervised, that could cause stress, and you don’t want to be causing stress to the dog right when baby comes home.

Kristin:  Sure.  That makes sense.

Jenn:  Yeah.  Teaching comfortable separation is really important.  If you have a dog who startles easily with novel stimuli, the kind of dog who’s afraid when you bring a new box in or when they hear a loud noise, getting the dog used to baby-type apparatuses early on is important, and there’s a lot that we do with just classical conditioning, pairing a baby swing with treats.  But it’s definitely something you’re going to want professional help with because, at the same time, we don’t want to magnetize your dog to your baby or vice versa.  We don’t want to draw a dog in to smell a baby.  We don’t want to bring a diaper home from the hospital and have the baby’s diaper be smelled by the dog.  We really want to associate perceiving that baby with good things but also build independence and space between the two.  There’s usually not a big problem when baby comes home.  It’s usually when baby starts to toddle and pull on hair and pull up that we start to see a problem between babies and dogs.  So I want to practice teaching independence and mutual respect between the two parties from the get-go.

Kristin:  That makes sense, and when babies start to pull on ears and tails and so on, that the dog is trained and is used to that kind of behavior.

Jenn:  That’s a common misconception.  So we never want a dog to get used to those behaviors.

Kristin:  Okay!

Jenn:  We try to really keep baby and dog pretty separate until baby is old enough to have the skills to use gentle touches and to understand canine body language and parental direction to move away from the dog.  You know, dogs will often tolerate being pulled on and climbed on for a very long time until they can’t tolerate it anymore, and that’s unfortunately when we see bites happen.  So, yeah, a lot of people think, how do I train my dog to tolerate baby in the food bowl or to tolerate baby climbing on him, and that’s not ever a goal that we have.  It’s not fair to baby and it’s not fair to the dog.  You might have the world’s most tolerant dog, but if you teach your child that it’s okay to climb on a dog, and your child then climbs on another person’s dog who is not so tolerant, you could really be setting your kiddo up for failure.

Kristin:  What about families who have a toddler at home and then all of a sudden, especially during COVID, want to transition a puppy into the home?  So instead of bringing a new baby in, how does that work?

Jenn:  It really kind of depends on the toddler and on the family.  There’s so many different variables there.  But I think if  have a family with young kids and they’re thinking about adding a puppy to the home, I think it’s important to know that puppies are not a blank slate.  So it’s not all in how you raise them.  Just like with people, personalities are the product of both genetic predetermination and early husbandry.  So you might be tempted to rescue a puppy that’s coming up from a shelter in Texas that came up on a rescue train, thinking that at 8 weeks old, you can mold that puppy into your baby’s best friend, and that’s not usually the case.  More often than not, those puppies that are coming from rescue, while they can be wonderful companions, probably not the very safest choice for a family with toddlers because we don’t know what kind of trauma they’ve been through.  And we don’t know what their adult temperaments will look like.  So while I love rescue — I have rescue dogs myself, and I came to training through rescue — if you’ve got toddlers and you’re thinking about a puppy, probably best to find a puppy from a reputable breeder.  And that’s a whole trick in and of itself in this day and age.  With the internet, people can go online and think they’re dealing with a reputable breeder and found out later on down the road perhaps they weren’t.  So reputable breeders will have you out to visit the parents, at least the mom.  The mom will be outgoing, come up and want to hang out with you, be seeking petting, will be seeking petting from your children, will be engaging with you.  The puppy should be raised in the household.  They should never come home before 8 weeks.  We know that early maternal separation causes a lot of anxiety and can be one of the bases for aggression later in life.  And, you know, we want puppies to be clean and healthy and also outgoing.  It’s normal for puppies to be bouncy and excited and engaging with you and happy.  A little bit less normal for a puppy to just kind of sit back and watch quietly.  Oftentimes, that’s an indication that the puppy’s a little bit fearful.  So you want that bouncy, happy, snuggly puppy.

Kristin:  My kids are wanting a puppy, so I’ll have to chat with you offline sometime about breeders.

Jenn:  Yeah, and I was going to say, probably your best bet is to find a trainer who has the same philosophy as you do and have them help direct you toward breeders that they see having puppies with really great temperaments for kids because it is really challenging for a dog to live with a toddler, because toddlers just — you know, they don’t have great control over how hard they’re pulling on tails or how they’re moving and running around.  And so you really want a puppy who not only tolerate that but really is drawn to and thrives on the company of children.

Kristin:  Jenn, can you walk us through what a typical group class would look like and preparing families for the baby?  So they have an existing dog, and they want to do an in-person group class.  What would that look like?

Jenn:  Yeah.  So I think our in-person group classes that you would bring a dog to are really basic skills classes.  Those are skills that are designed to teach your dog to go lie down on a bed, walk nicely on a leash, come when he’s called.  We do offer workshops and seminars for getting ready for baby, and those are really designed for parents.  And typically what we’ll do is we’ll bring in a Family Paws certified parent educator.  It’s a fantastic organization.  You can check them out online.  And they have a whole Dogs & Storks or Dogs & Toddlers program that’s geared toward setting families up for success with babies.  We’re hoping to do one of those this spring, if we can make that happen.  It might end up having to be virtual.   But if we’re working specifically with a particular dog and setting that particular dog up for success in a family that’s adding children, we really like to do that on a one-on-one basis because every dog is so different, and their capabilities and sensitivities are so different, and every family is so different.  That really needs to be catered to one-on-one.  You know, even my own dogs, each would need something different in order to adjust to a new person coming into the house, so it’s not really something that we can do well in just a group class.  Things we’re going to think about are, you know, where does your dog eat?  Where does your dog sleep?  Do we need to change that to accommodate baby?  Is your dog crate trained?  Is your dog comfortable going behind a baby gate?  How does your dog do with noises?  Do we need to do some counter-conditioning with baby crying sounds?  You know, does your dog currently sleep on the couch?  Is that going to be a safe spot for your dog to sleep when baby comes home, or do we need to transition your dog to his own dog bed?  So it’s really individualized I guess is what I’m saying.

Kristin:  So it seems like it would be best in person, ideally, in their home?  But potentially also virtually?

Jenn:  We can do them in-home; we can do them virtually; we can do them at our facility.  A lot of it is kind of taking a history and finding out where you’ve been with your dog, what you’ve done already, what your dog knows, what your dog is sensitive to, and then constructing a plan that’s individualized for you and your dog.  So I’d say about the first third of that session is taking a history and finding out how we can best help you and then coming up with a plan specifically for you and your dog.

Kristin:  I am so excited to chat with you about a project that Alyssa and I have been working on during the pandemic.  We took this time and pivoted, as many businesses have, and decided it was the time to launch some online programming to better serve expecting families.  So our first step in that first stage is we created a download for you about how to birth confidently in a pandemic.  We also have a free course coming up on both February 23rd and 26th, and you can find all of this at our new website, www.thebecomingcourse.com. 

Kristin:  Do you have tips for our listeners who are planning a home birth and have strangers, essentially, entering the home between, say, doulas and family members and midwives?  Have you encountered that situation with clients in preparing a dog or multiple dogs for that situation?

Jenn:  Absolutely.  You know, I think if you’re planning a home birth and you’re concerned about strangers coming into your home, we probably need to talk more about how to help your dog when baby comes home, too, because that tells me that your dog probably has some fears and anxieties that we need to deal with.  So I don’t think that’s the primary concern.  Hopefully, if you’re at a point where you are planning a home birth and baby’s coming, your dog is very comfortable with people coming in and out of the house.  If not, we’re going to need to come up with a management plan for the birth and probably a pretty comprehensive behavior modification plan for your dog because when we see a dog who’s uncomfortable with people coming and going in the house, that tells me that the dog is pretty anxious.

Kristin:  Yes.  I have encountered that at some births I’ve attended.

Jenn:  Yeah.  So I think if you know that your dog is anxious around people coming and going, oftentimes I’ll recommend that if you have a parent or a friend who can keep your dog for the birth or maybe board your dog, even, so that you don’t have — you know, it’s stressful enough.  Our dogs are so in tune to our moods and how we’re doing.  It’s stressful enough for them to see us in discomfort.  Adding strangers coming and going is probably too much.  So if you have a dog who’s at all concerned about that, I think it’s probably best to board them for the birth or have, like I said, a parent take care of them.  I know I wasn’t lucky enough to have a home birth, but my mom came and took care of our dogs while we were in the hospital when my son was born.

Kristin:  And that’s a big planning factor for the majority of our clients who birth in the hospital and planning — you know, not knowing when you’ll go into labor, most of the time; who will take care of the dog; who do you call, what’s the best resource.  Having someone come in the home or boarding.

Jenn:  And I recommend whoever’s going to be that person, that they do — if it’s not somebody who’s already known to your dog, that you do several visits with the person prior to baby’s arrival so that your dog is comfortable with that person, you know, if they need to come in when you’re not home.  Sometimes dog can be very friendly when their owner is home, but when someone comes in the home and no one else is there, they get a little worried, justifiably.

Kristin:  Sure.  Protective.  Yes, of course.

Jenn:  So I think it’s good to have a good, established relationship with them.  If you’re going to board your dog, you may need to still have a trusted friend or family member take your dog to the boarding facility.  Not very many of them will pick them up for you.  I don’t know this for certain, but places like Nature of the Dog — our friends, Nature of the Dog, do dog walking, but they also have an in-home boarding facility.  Maybe an organization that does something like that might be able to help.

Kristin:  And so they would have the availability, potentially, for 24/7 call if someone is in labor at 2:00 a.m. and they need —

Jenn:  I don’t know about 24/7 call.  I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a dog care organization that could do 24/7, but certainly if dog is at home and you’re in the hospital, it’s not typically emergent for them to get out right away.  But, you know, you could say, hey, here’s my plan.  Can I send a text to your organization and see if the sitter can come and pick them up the next day early in the morning or what have you?

Kristin:  Sure.  That makes sense.

Jenn:  I can’t speak for other organizations, but I imagine that if you have a good relationship with your dog walker or dog sitter, or certainly with a friend or family member, you could probably arrange that.

Kristin:  What other tips do you have for new parents when it comes to planning with their existing dog versus getting a new puppy?

Jenn:  I think, you know, the biggest thing is really to — we want to keep things safe.  We want to set everybody up for success and not just expect everybody to get along.  So if you know that your dog’s got some anxiety, let’s start treating that anxiety right away.  It’s typically best to start with training with positive reinforcement, and sometimes if the anxiety is severe, we work with your vet, too, to kind of come at it from a collaborative approach.  And we want to keep things super, super safe.  So don’t count on your dog tolerating things because I think that that’s when we really run into trouble.  The vast majority of the time, kids and dogs do wonderfully together, but it always takes careful planning and supervision to make sure that everybody is okay and happy and not hurting each other on accident.

Kristin:  Great tips!  How can our listeners reach out to you?  I’d love to get your website info, as well as — I know you’re very active on social media.  Share away!

Jenn:  Thanks very much!  We have a website.  Our telephone number, because we have one of those, is 616-264-2532.  And we are on Instagram and Facebook at A Pleasant Dog.

Kristin:  Thank you so much, Jenn.  It was great to chat with you, and I appreciate all the tips.  We’ll chat later about my kids’ puppy preferences!

Baby monitors: Today Alyssa, a sleep consultant at Gold Coast Doulas, speaks with Lisa, a Building Biologist at Well Abode, and Brian, an engineer at Bebcare.  Bebcare has the lowest EMF baby monitors on the market.  The conversation gets a little technical but it’s really interesting, and you may learn a thing or two about creating a safer home for you and your family!  Listen until the end to get 10% off a Bebcare baby monitor for your home!  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Welcome.  You’re listening to Ask the Doulas, a podcast where we talk to experts from all over the country about topics related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and early parenting.  Let’s chat!

Brian:  Hi there!

Alyssa:  Hi!  Hey, Lisa.

Lisa:  Hey, guys.

Alyssa:  So I learned about Bebcare – I think Juliana emailed me, and then as I read more about it, I was intrigued because of the sleep consultations that I do, and I already mentioned EMFs because of my relationship with Lisa, who’s a building biologist.  So Lisa, why don’t you introduce yourself, and then Brian, tell us what you do at Bebcare?

Lisa:  Yeah.  I am a building biologist, and a building biologist assesses the built space, so whether it’s a home or a school or an office building, for anything that directly impacts the health of the people who live or work or learn within those buildings.  And so the three kind of main categories that we look at are the electromagnetic – the manmade electromagnetic prevalence in that building, the air quality or the indoor air quality, as well as water quality, very just basically speaking.  And, yeah.  So I work with existing buildings to make them more health-enhancing, and then I also work on new construction projects on how to make them healthy from the beginning.

Alyssa:  Amazing!  Brian, tell us about you, since Lisa and I don’t know you at all.

Brian:  Yeah.  So my name is Brian.  I’m in charge of the product development at Bebcare.  So what this mean is I work with my team of engineers and developers to develop existing and new products, new exciting products, that we have.  What Bebcare is all about is really we are a baby monitor company that specializes in ultra-low emissions baby monitors.  And this is something that we are very passionate about because one of the things that we realize is, it’s kind of what Lisa mentioned, is the prevalence of devices in our homes that emit high doses of electromagnetic waves.  So, for example, your Wi-Fi routers, your cellular phones.  And what you don’t want around the baby is a baby monitor that emits really high doses of wireless radiation.  So this is a problem that we try to tackle with products, so we come up with a unique technology called DSR, digital safe radio technology, that aims to reduce wireless radiation coming from baby monitors.  So, in short, Bebcare baby monitors on average would emit anywhere that’s, you know, set up 2 to 5 percent of wireless EMF when you compare to traditional baby monitors that uses something called DECT technology.

Lisa:  What is the technology that you guys use?

Brian:  It’s called DSR, digital safe radio.  It’s just kind of a proprietary wireless protocol that we have designed ourselves.  So some of the research was originally done by our founders, actually, at MIT, but some of the research was more focused on the application of the radio signal for wireless communication.  So they were really looking at problems of how to increase wireless range while reducing the wireless power of the communication.  And then at some point, some of that research became the core technology of Bebcare because they realized some of that technology can actually be applied to baby monitors.

Alyssa:  Let’s assume most parents listening don’t understand EMFs or why a baby monitor would have EMFs and why EMFs are even troublesome for, you know, humans in general, but especially a little tiny baby or child that’s growing and developing at a rapid pace.  Do you want to, like, give a brief overview of why it’s disruptive?  And then I know you have a monitor there that we were actually going to test and see what kind of results you got.

Lisa:  In terms of kind of how it’s bioactive to the body, are you asking me that question, or are you asking Brian?

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Let’s just have you give a quick – you know, because Brian said they found – you know, this is a problem.  It’s why they created these, and I’m sure that’s kind of why you got into this as well.  Like, you know this is an issue.  But for somebody who’s never heard the term EMF, you know, like – even Bebcare mentions, I think, on their website that some baby monitors are emitting such a strong signal, it’s the same as a microwave.  But most people might go, well, okay, my microwave emits a signal?  Like, what?  I didn’t even know that.  And how bad is a microwave?  How bad could that be?

Lisa:  Right.  Well, from – I mean, in super quick laymen’s terms, essentially, the electrical pulses that happen according to the frequency, those are just very disruptive to the body, but especially children because they’re growing so quickly.  So the human systems or organs that are most affected by EMFs are the organs or systems that literally rely on electrical pulses to communicate with, you know, themselves or with other organs in the body.  And so those would be your brain, your heart, the nervous system, your immune system, and then intercellular communication.  All of those rely on literally the flow of electrons.  And so the human pulse, like when you look at just the brain, for example, that frequency is somewhere between 3 Hertz and then 30 Hertz, so at most it’s a double-digit frequency, so number of cycles per second.  But when we get into things that use DECT technology, whether it’s a wireless phone or a cordless phone or a baby monitor, those are in the gigahertz range.  So those are very disruptive, and the power density is just way higher than what the normal body is used to.  So it’s just very, very disruptive to, you know, the sleep cycles of babies.  But also they’re growing new cells, new tissue, new synapses every second of every day, and it’s just disruptive to the biological system of what a body is naturally trying to do.  And when you look at the DECT technology, that is in the gigahertz range, so that’s billions of cycles per second, versus the DSR, which is what Brian is talking about, in the megahertz range.  So that’s millions of cycles per second, which is, you know, in order of magnitude, less, versus, you know, the technology that other baby monitors are based on.  And what I typically find for baby monitors, and of course this varies by brand and by model, but typically speaking, an audio-only baby monitor measures somewhere between a half a million microwatts per meter squared or up to about three-quarters of a million.  And then when you get into the video baby monitors, which the majority of people have, that is anywhere from 1 million to 2 million microwatts per meter squared.  And if you look at the building biology guidelines in terms of what’s considered safe for a sleep space, you want to be less than 10.  So the slight concern starts in that 10 microwatts per meter squared or less.  And so when I measured your base unit, it’s about – it’s somewhere between 200 and 300.  So to get it down into that slight anomaly or less, we still need to distance the unit kind of probably about 10 feet away from a body or away from a crib, so there’s for sure a caveat that I would need to say, but this is orders of magnitude less of any other wireless baby monitor that I’ve measured.

Alyssa:  Which one do you have?  Because I know they have IQ, which is their most sophisticated model.

Lisa:  I have the Bebcare Hear.

Alyssa:  Is that the audio one?

Brian:  Yeah.

Lisa:  Yes.  It says ultra-low radiation on it.  Yeah.

Alyssa:  Brian, any comments about Lisa’s thoughts?

Brian:  Yeah.  I think Lisa gave a really comprehensive overview about why EMF waves could be bad for the body.  It’s a really interesting topic, and a lot of things that we see in the world is actually comprised of EMF waves.  So just to think, as an example, visible light is actually a form of electromagnetic waves.  It is how we can see light, is actually EMF waves interacting with our retina, which creates an electrical pulse that’s being sent to our brain, and the brain interprets that as light, as visible images.  So when we talk about electromagnetic waves, you know, not all electromagnetic waves are dangerous.  Some electromagnetic waves, we’re exposed to every single day since the beginning of the world.  But where electromagnetic waves can really start to get dangerous for the human body is sort of what Lisa mentioned.  It’s the frequency of the EMF wave.  So very high frequency waves tend to be correlated with a very high power output.  It’s not always an equal relationship, but it tends to be correlated, which is why people would say exposure to high frequency gigahertz or terahertz waves can have detrimental effects on the body.  And this is particularly prevalent for babies because babies, unlike an adult, a lot of their body structure is not formed.  And in particular, for a baby, the skull is not as well-formed as an adult skull.  So the amount of protection that they have around the baby’s brain is much less compared to an adult’s brain.  And there are some studies – it’s a bit of a controversial topic, but there are studies that have linked exposure to electromagnetic waves to baby, whether or not the baby is born or perhaps in fetus – there is link between that exposure and development learning disabilities that they develop down the road, and that may include ADHD.  So that’s why this, the idea of reducing EMF exposure for babies, especially at a young age, is a very important topic for parents.

Alyssa:  Before I even knew about this topic or met Lisa, the first realization I had of this was, I have a sound machine at home, and I remember in the morning, you know, putting my phone next to it one time, and all of a sudden the sound machine just made a crazy noise.  And I knew that I couldn’t put my cell phone near that, but I didn’t understand.  Like, oh, that’s weird.  My cell phone just can’t be next to this.  But then after meeting Lisa and doing some of these tests, it made perfect sense that the frequencies from this phone are so powerful that it’s actually screwing with this little device on my bedside table.  So what is that doing next to my head?  What is it doing when it’s in my pocket all day?  It just really makes you start to think about all the things that we have on us all day long.  And then you have a baby and create this nursery, and you put – you know, some nurseries have the Nest cameras.  We have the wireless monitors.  And then sometimes people are using their cell phones as a sound machine, so the cell phone is right next to the crib.  So there’s just all these devices that we’re putting in this little baby’s room who, like you said, their brain isn’t even – or their skull isn’t even formed enough to block some of those rays that we as adults are able to.

Brian:  You’re absolutely right.

Alyssa:  If somebody wanted to learn more about this – like, let’s say this is the first time a parent is hearing about EMFs, and they’re really skeptical.  Where would you send them to find, you know, scientific evidence-based information so that they know that this isn’t just some sort of weird conspiracy theory?  Do either one of you have a good resource list?

Lisa:  I mean, one of my two top go-tos are the BioInitiative Report, which is, I think, a 2500-page report, but they have a 19-page summary for the public.  It looks at both radiofrequencies as well as AC magnetic, so those – the biological impact of those two different types of waves and frequencies are kind of intertwined with that report.  But I think it looks at – you know, I think it looks at over 3800 peer reviewed studies that have been done, so it’s just a really good synthesis.  And the other thing that I point to is the World Health Organization’s classification of RF as a class 2B possible carcinogen, and there’s other things in that category like asbestos and stuff that we know that we should be staying away from.  And so especially when somebody is skeptical, I just try to find more – you know, the most plain, factual information that is not politically associated in any way, and those are my two go-tos.  Now, there’s a whole bunch of other researches and stuff that have done really good research, but sometimes I just find that to be too dense for the person who’s just getting introduced to this.  What do you use, Brian?

Brian:  Yeah.  I think you mentioned good sources, the Would Health Organization.  I think their classification as EMF as potentially carcinogenic – that was back in 2011 – really rang a lot of alarm bells for a lot of folks, not just parents, but really a lot of people who have wireless devices at home.  I think a simple Google search on the effect of EMF on the human body would yield a lot of scientific research on this topic.  In the past couple of years, a lot of really famous research institutions or universities have done really extensive and ongoing research on this topic.  For example, University of Chicago has done a really good study where they used exposure of EMF, different variety of EMF, different frequencies, different power, to a laboratory mouse and see what kind of effect that they observed on these animals.  And some of the results are pretty alarming.  So I think it’s definitely worth checking out the raw scientific paper if, let’s say, you are more technically inclined, just to see what conclusions these researchers have made.

Alyssa:  So, Lisa, you are overall – you would say that this base model from Bebcare is definitely one of the lowest that you’ve seen?

Lisa:  Yes.  It is.  But with, you know, the big caveat of, it still needs to be distanced from the crib itself.  And that’s a big caveat because parents, at least what I’ve seen in the homes that I’ve done EMF assessments on, they typically put the monitor, you know, as close as possible.

Alyssa:  It’s hooked right onto the crib.

Lisa:  You know, somewhere around a meter would be not close enough.  So, yeah.  But, I mean, if somebody – I mean, ideally, for me, and I don’t know if you guys have one of these coming or not, but I would love – there is a D link model, too, that you can – that is – you can plug an ethernet cable into, so obviously something that doesn’t emit any, you know, wireless frequency in the mega- or gigahertz range would be ideal.   You know, not everybody is open to pulling ethernet cables through the wall or having it strewn across their floors, but hardwiring your house is one of the top recommendations because then you can essentially turn off all the antennas that you have across your devices and electronics and stuff.  But if they aren’t willing to do this, then I would – this would be kind of the next-best option, assuming that they will distance it.

Brian:  Yeah, absolutely.  We do believe in the idea of creating a low EMF home for families, so that’s why actually on our website we put together a little short guide in helping parents.  You know, how can you create a low EMF home for yourself?  And there are just a couple of really simple tips.  For example, instead of using a Wi-Fi router at home, try to use a wired ethernet for your laptop or for your home computer.  Or at best, turn off the Wi-Fi router at night when you go to sleep.  And the same with cell phones.  A lot of our friends, when they go to sleep, they put the cell phone right next to the bed on the night stand, less than feet away from their head when they’re sleeping.  And it’s one of these little things that you can do: turn off your phone at night.  Or, if you have to keep it on in case of emergencies, put it ten feet away, away from where you’re sleeping.  Just the idea of sort of exposing – even for an adult – exposing your head to seven hours, eight hours of constant EMF exposure at night when you don’t really need to?  For us, these are the low-hanging fruits.  These are the things that you can do to really reduce the EMF level in your home.

Alyssa:  I did want to mention that the other two models that Bebcare has, they are wireless, but they completely turn off there’s no sound, correct?  So there’s zero emissions when it’s not in use?

Brian:  That’s right.  You brought up a really good point.  Actually, part of the DSR technology, it’s about voice activation.  And this is something that’s missing in a lot of other baby monitors.  So one aspect of EM exposure is, you don’t want to use a high frequency device for your baby.  The other part is about the power of the baby monitor.  What we have accomplished with Bebcare baby monitors is that – you know, most of the time, the baby is not crying.  So there’s no point for the baby monitor to be transmitting video or audio data and emitting a lot of wireless radiation.  So what the Bebcare baby monitor does is that, when there’s no sound inside the nursery, the baby monitor actually goes into a deep sleep state.  And in this sleep state, the emissions really does drop to zero.  So this is something that really makes a huge difference when you’re looking at the average EMF exposure for a device.

Lisa:  I have a question about that.  For the Bebcare Hear model, does it use that voice activation or not?

Brian:  It does.

Lisa:  And then when I was measuring this, the base unit, so the unit that would be closest to the parents, that is – I’ve never been able to measure where it is going into a passive state.  I am able to measure the portion that goes, you know, by the crib, that that goes into a passive state, but does the home unit also – is that also passive, or is it just the one in the nursery?

Brian:  It’s more the one in the nursery.  But that said, there’s a mode in the Bebcare Hear baby monitor that you have to enable.  It’s called the Green Mode.  And that – once you enable the mode, then the emissions level really does drop to zero when it’s in the sleep state.  And the reason why that’s the case is because even in, let’s say, the normal mode of operation, even if in the sleep state, that’s still a little bit of signal that’s being transmitted, and the reason why that’s the case is because that’s what we call the out of range and the low battery alert between the baby unit and the parent unit.  But if you turn those off, then it really goes to zero.  Does that make sense?

Lisa:  Are there instructions on how to turn the Green Mode on?

Brian:  Yep.  There’s this – we use an online user manual, and part of that is because we want to reduce the use of paper in a lot of commercial products and consumer products these days.

Lisa:  I’m just curious, why isn’t that set as the default?

Brian:  The reason is because a lot of parents do want the out of range and low battery alert in the baby monitor.  So they want to know, let’s say, if they kind of walk outside of the house, they walk to a neighbor’s house – they want to know if the two units are out of range, because once they’re out of range, then it kind of defeats the purpose of a baby monitor.

Alyssa:  So the part that’s in the nursery is always in that mode where it turns off if there’s no noise, but the parent, the base part that the parent holds, you have the ability to turn it that way if the parent wants to?

Brian:  That’s right.

Alyssa:  Got it.

Lisa:  And what type of sounds turn on the baby unit?  What if it was, like, a sound machine or a fan?  Or is it more intelligent knowing that it’s a voice or a cry?

Brian:  It is tuned to pick up human sounds, the frequency of human sounds, more easily.  But that said, it’s kind of a configuration issue.  So if there is a white noise machine inside the nursery, you may have to change the microphone sensitivity on the Bebcare Hear or kind of configure your white noise machine and the baby unit so that they do not interfere with each other.  But there are ways to do so.

Lisa:  Okay.  Great.

Alyssa:  Is there anything else we want to touch on?  No?  You, Brian?

Brian:  Yeah, I think that’s it.  Really, thank you so much for having me on this podcast.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Thanks for joining us.  You too, Lisa.  I hope that we at least answered some questions for parents on what the heck are EMFs.  And I know that we – so Gold Coast is a partner with Bebcare now, and I know you offer a discount.  So if anyone wants to get a discount, they can go to Bebcare, and I think you just have to type in Gold Coast Doulas to get a 10 percent discount, or you can go to Bebcare.com/discount/goldcoastdoulas.  It’s kind of a long one, but I think either one will give listeners a 10 percent discount!  Well, thank you all!

Brian:  Thank you so much.

Lisa:  Thanks!

Read here for more of our past conversations with Lisa from Well Abode.

 

Kristin talks with Jennifer Hoekstra, one of the owners of Secure Quest, about car seat safety for our babies and toddlers.  You’ll be astonished at how many of us install our car seats incorrectly!  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud. 

Kristin:  Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas.  I’m Kristin, co-owner, and I’m here today with Jennifer Hoekstra.  She is co-owner of Secure Quest, LLC.  Welcome, Jennifer!

Jennifer:  Thanks for having me!

Kristin:  Thanks so much for hopping on.  And we would love to hear a bit about your own personal background, as well as about your new business.

Jennifer:  Perfect!  Well, I’m a mom of four kids.  I love being a mom.  They are extremely busy.  I now have two high schoolers, a middle schooler, and an elementary kiddo.  So we are in the mix of just about every stage of life except baby, which I’m not sad to be past that.  I’m not going to lie.

Kristin:  Right!

Jennifer:  But it was wonderful.  My first two kids are only 15 months apart, so that was a good challenge at the early onset of motherhood — figuring out how to do this mom thing with two little ones at the same time.  But we survived, and there’s hope out there.  For those of you who may have more than one little one at a time, it does get better, I promise, and it’s pretty awesome.

Kristin:  That’s great advice.  Yes.  It does get better and easier over the years, for sure.

Jennifer:  Yeah.  It sure does.  I started out my life as a teacher, and I loved teaching.  I loved presenting information to kids.  I loved watching them catch on.  And it was super powerful.  And then my husband and I moved to the mission field for a few years, and again, I loved teaching people and really helping them grasp information.  And then I transitioned into the world at the hospital, where I continued to teach.  I taught families all about safety, about making sure their children were protected from all different types of preventable injuries, from car seat safety to bike safety to water safety to lawn mower safety to poison prevention — a little bit of everything, and it was, again, very powerful to share information with parents.  And then, unfortunately, COVID hit, and the hospital had some hard decisions to make about programming and dollars and things that were just not able to be sustainable during a time of struggle.  And our position at the hospital, being the car seat safety team as people knew us, was eliminated.  And that was really hard, but it didn’t stop me from understanding the importance of providing information and education to parents.  Therefore, I joined forced with my previous hospital partner and now current co-owner with me at Secure Quest, Kim Hernden.  And together, the two of us have begun this amazing business called Secure Quest.  And our goal is to help families keep their kids safe, primarily focusing on child passenger safety or car seat safety.  We have so many years of experience between the two of us.  We’ve been in the field of car seat safety for over 25 years combined, and we’ve seen a lot of different things throughout that 25 years, from parents who truly had never touched a car seat before their first baby was born to parents who have researched and studied and made themselves self-experts by all of the research they’ve done.  But what we have noticed through all of our interactions with families, with all different backgrounds and pieces of information, is everyone loves to be reassured that they’re doing it right.  And that’s really one of the most powerful things we can offer to a family is the assurance that when you speak to one of us as an expert, that we can say to you, you are doing it great.  Or, we can say, hey, you gave it a great effort, but we have a few things that you could change to ultimately provide safer travel for your child.  And we thought it was important to really branch out and start this company because there are many misconceptions in our community that you can just turn anywhere and find help with your car seats, but unfortunately that is not the case.  I’m currently in West Michigan with you, and we are finding that there are very few places that are either, number 1, open for service for car seat safety help or, number 2, even have a certified person on staff.  I think when you ask questions of people, whether they’re doctors, nursing, working at the family fair, or somebody who works in your child’s school, if you ask them, where do I go for help with my car seat, many people’s first response is, oh, you can go to the fire department.  Or you can go to the police department.  And unfortunately, that is not a true statement.  What the statement should be is, oh, you can find someone certified and they can help you.  Locally in Grand Rapids proper, there is not one single person certified to check car seats anymore.  We have a few outlying people in different communities outside of Grand Rapids, so still in the greater Grand Rapids area.  We have a couple of firefighters scattered through different areas around Grand Rapids, but it’s hard because they don’t have necessarily the man power to do their primary job and still take families in.  So we knew that there was a deep need for experts in the field of car seats to be able to serve families who are looking for that information.  And hence, Secure Quest was born.

Kristin: I love it!  So fill us in a bit about some of the stats on families and their installation success with car seats.

Jennifer:  It’s always a little bit enlightening and a little bit frightening when you hear statistics.  So I’m going to put a little caveat.  Remember, statistics take a look at the broad picture.  Right?  They really take into effect nationwide and how many people we’re talking about.  So, statistically, across the nature, when you’re looking at the number of people who improperly or incorrectly install their car seat, that number hovers around 75% of people doing it wrong, and that number is taken from over 2 million car seats checked.  We’re talking about a huge number.  And that’s over 23 years of installation methods with an expert next to them.  So we’re talking about people who are gathering information from a specific event or time when they met with an expert.  They came; they did some tally marks and some informational gathering, and found out that that number was not very good.  It gets worse locally.  Over the past 12 years, I’ve been gathering data for all of the car seats that I’ve checked with my team, and we’ve checked over 8,000 car seats in the last 5 years, and over the last 12 years, we’re closer to 20,000 car seats.  And we are finding that in the local area, we’re at a 92% misuse rate.  And that’s really frightening, but there’s hope, because we can teach you.  One family at a time; small group settings; however you take information in is how we want to provide it to you.  And the reason that this number is so big is because there’s so many parts and pieces to a car seat safety installation.  You have the putting the car seat in the car part, but you also have the putting the baby in the car seat part.  And both of those pieces have to be done exactly right for that car seat to work the way it was designed and protect your child in the event of a crash.  I think for me, one of the most common statements that I hear from families when I’m working with them is, oh, well, I did it this way with my first baby, or I did it this way when my niece was over, or my dad did it this way, or my brother.  So people are learning from previous experiences or from other family members but not often are they having a reason to question the way they did things.  Most of us don’t crash on a weekly basis and hope that the outcome is good.  So when there’s not a factor, whether it’s a crash or an almost-avoidance of a crash or a just-miss, it doesn’t prompt us to think about, necessarily, how we have our child installed in the car or how our car seat’s installed in the vehicle.  It’s just, well, it’s probably good enough.  And we know that good enough usually isn’t good enough.  It does have to be correct.

Kristin:  Yes.  And if someone has a car seat that they want to transfer to multiple cars, A, they should have different bases for each vehicle and bring those to get checked individually?

Jennifer:  That’s a great idea because that is probably why car seats are so difficult, because you have so many combinations and factors that really change the way a car seat is installed in one car versus the other.  You may have a relatively simple base that you want to install in a car, but you open the door of Dad’s care, and you realize, wow, this is really not a very big back seat.  And then you open the back door of grandma’s car, and you say, well, don’t you have those hook things that I have?

Kristin:  Exactly.

Jennifer:  And then you open the door of Mom’s car, and you’re like, well, this is pretty easy!  But your questioning then is, why wasn’t it easy in the other car?  And it is a really good idea either, A, to get all the cars checked and all the bases checked, or B, spend time on one primary vehicle feeling super, super confident, getting that one on one education, and then taking it back to your other vehicle, taking what you have learned, giving it your best shot, but then always kind of doing a follow up.  And right now, we can do those virtually.  We can do those in person.  We are really wanting parents to have the confidence that they can do it.  We believe in our ability to teach families.  We believe that you will walk away confident and say, I think I could figure out the Camry, even though I didn’t bring it.  But we would encourage you to text us a picture.  How did you do?  Shoot us a quick video.  Show us, because we can give you that confidence then that it is correct.

Kristin:  That’s great!  So you mentioned virtual as an option.  Tell us what Secure Quest is doing during COVID.

Jennifer:  We are really trying to help families feel confident in not only knowing how to find us, being comfortable, being in the same space as us, or not being in the same space with us and learning virtually over the computer.  So if you visit our website, we have an appointment calendar that you can book under the Personal Assistance tab, and you can choose whether you want that to be virtually or in person.  We will come to you.  We can meet at an agreed-upon location, or you can come to us.  We don’t have a storefront, per se, but we have some meeting spaces where we have gathered permission to meet with families.  And we then will make sure that we are using all of the proper protocol during COVID.  We’ll wear mask.  We can sanitize before and after.  We will also wear gloves if a family is more comfortable that way.  We want to make sure that everyone is safe in the time of helping and learning, but we also want you to be comfortable.  So please know that we are very flexible, and we are willing to do what it takes to empower you to transport your children safely.

Kristin:  That’s wonderful.  And you did mention the website as far as how to contact and the online scheduling.  The question we always get from clients is payment.  What are the payment options, and is anything covered any, like, health savings or insurance?

Jennifer:  You know, we would love for anybody who might be listening who has a way to get it covered by a health savings to jump on our website and let us know.  We’ve been working really hard with some local insurance companies, trying to figure that out, but currently, there is not someone that feels that that’s an important service to pay for through insurances.  So we accept Venmo payment on our website.  We will take cash if that’s something that parents would prefer to do.  We’ll take a check when we get to the space there.  It is a pretty easy option right on our website to do Venmo, and there are instructions on how to set up a Venmo account if it’s not something that you’ve ever done before.  When we started our company, I was still in the world of PayPal, which is like old people payment, you know —

Kristin:  We still use PayPal!

Jennifer:  — and we had to make the switch to Venmo because it was more conducive to our constituents.  And working with our families, we want to make it as easy as possible.  We also really encourage families to think about this as a gift.  You as a pregnant mom may really value this experience for yourself and for your partner, but it is a great idea for a Christmas gift for your parents.  You know, grandmas and grandpas who are going to transport children also need to learn how to do it correctly, even though they’ve had some experiences, lots of things have changed.  Or a daycare provider.  Have a nice, you know, thank you for watching our child gift, and offer them an opportunity to come and meet with us or have us come to their home so that we can show them, and then you can be confident that your child’s riding safely with everyone who’s traveling with them.  A baby shower gift, too.  It’s a great gift.

Kristin:  Yeah, definitely.  A baby shower gift or — yeah, anything — Christmas gifts, you know, Christmas coming up, like you mentioned.

Jennifer:  And I think one of the things that — our goal is, obviously, like I mentioned, to help you to feel confident to transport your child.  But knowing that there are many, many different phases of car seat safety within your child’s life — you’re going to start with a rear-facing car seat, and then you’re going to, at some point, transition to a forward-facing car seat, and then you’re going to transition to the booster seat, and then you have to know when it’s okay to ride without something.  We do want to be part of your child’s growing-up experience when it comes to car seat safety.  We have no problem teaching families multiple times, particularly at those different stages, because some of the basic knowledge is very wonderful to carry from time to time, but there are some significant changes that take place at each stage, and without really having the grasping knowledge of all of those changes, some of them can be really tricky, and some of them can actually be a very significant difference between a good outcome in a crash and a not-so-good outcome.  So we’d love to be part of that entire experience of your child’s riding in a car seat time.

Kristin:  Love it.  Well, thank you for all of this wonderful information!  And I would love for you to let our listeners in other regions outside of West Michigan know how to find a licensed car seat safety technician.

Jennifer:  Absolutely.  Right now, it is awesome because we are really open to this virtual.  So whether you’re listening on the east coast or on the east side of the state or even in the Bahamas, you can always reach out to us, and we can help you over the computer.  But if you really are looking for that in-person service, you can always go to safekids.org, and there’s a tab at the top that says Find a Car Seat Technician.  There, you can enter your ZIP code, and anyone who has chosen to be listed publicly who meets the requirements of being a nationally certified car seat technician is available to find that way.  I can’t guarantee that everyone’s doing in-person stuff right now, but there is at least someone who will be within your area, hopefully, that can come and help you in-person if that’s what you’re looking for.

Kristin:  Thank you!  Any last words of advice for our listeners, Jennifer?

Jennifer:  Oh, man.  Car seats are a little bit scary, but really, once you take the time to learn them, they are an amazing tool to protect your baby.  I often will say to parents, it’s so difficult because you don’t often know what you don’t know until someone tells you.  And I would love to be that someone for any of you that are listening because this is a place where you can demonstrate your competence, your knowledge, and your commitment to your child’s safety.

Kristin:  That’s great.  And Jennifer, remind us again how to find you.

Jennifer:  Absolutely.  You can always call us.  We can take a text or a call at 616-485-0205.  Or you can find us at our website.  You can also send us an email at info@secure-quest.com, as well.

Kristin:  Thank you so much!  You’ve been listening to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas.

 

Alyssa talks to Chris Emmer, a past sleep and postpartum doula client, about transitioning her daughter to a “big kid bed.”  Alyssa gives tips on shortening the bedtime routine and getting the child involved and excited about sleep!  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa:  Hi.  Thanks for joining us today on the Ask the Doulas Podcast.  I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas.  I am a certified postpartum doula, newborn care specialist, and certified infant and child sleep consultant.  Today, we’ll be talking to Chris Emmer.  She is a past sleep client of mine and also a doula client of ours.

Chris:  Hi, Alyssa.

Alyssa:  Hi, Chris.  How are you?

Chris:  How’s it going?

Alyssa:  Good.

Chris:  Oh, my gosh.  I just got Sam down for her nap.  It’s such perfect timing that we’re going to talk about this right now.

Alyssa:  Well, let’s dive right in.  I know both of us, our time is limited.  She’s taking one nap a day, right?

Chris:  Oh, yeah.  She’s down to one.  She’s been a one-napper for a while.

Alyssa:  And she’s just two?

Chris:  Yeah.  She’ll be two and a half, actually, in, like, a matter of weeks here.

Alyssa:  Oh, my gosh.  Like, when did that happen?  That seems crazy.

Chris:  I know.  The shortest time.  It feels like a hundred years and one day, all at the same time.

Alyssa:  I bet!  So tell me what’s happening.  So since I’m recording, I’ll just update the listeners that you texted a while ago and were like, okay, you know, one of those asking for a friend — what do you do when your two-year-old is climbing out of bed or the crib?  So you had to transition her from crib to big bed recently?

Chris:  Yes, absolutely.

Alyssa:  And it hasn’t been going well?

Chris:  No.  It has not.  It’s been going fine, but it’s been a surprising transition that I was, like, wait, what?  I thought we figured out sleep.

Alyssa:  Well, it’s a different ballgame.  You have a toddler now with a little voice and an opinion, and yeah, it makes things a little more difficult.  I mean, typically, I like to keep a baby — or she’s not a baby anymore, but a toddler — in a crib until they’re three for, probably what we’re going to find out, is all the reasons that are driving you crazy, like they don’t have any impulse control, so they will just get out of bed, and then it turns into this really fun game for them to keep popping in and out of bed.  But then at that age, too, they might not understand the rules, and it might be hard to give them some rewards.  We’ll talk about some of the things that I suggest.  But, yeah, what do you find is your most difficult aspect of transitioning?

Chris:  The put-down has become a very long process.

Alyssa:  Like the whole bedtime routine?

Chris:  The whole bedtime routine.  It’s off the rails.  With the crib, it had gotten so deliciously easy where, I mean, read some books, put her in the crib, walk out, you’re all good.  Like, not even a peep comes out of her.  And since she’s transitioned to the big girl bed, she’s also — and I don’t know if it has anything to do with getting out of the crib and into the big girl bed, or if it’s just, you know, synchronistic timing, but she’s also developed, like, a little bit of fear of the dark, which is funny because when she was in the crib, the room was totally pitch black, and now that she’s in the big girl bed, I have got nightlights in every outlet in that room.  It’s much lighter in there.  So she just gets kind of nervous, I think, and that’s honestly the word that she uses.  She says, “I’m nervous.”

Alyssa:  Well, that crib is small and has walls and feels safe and secure, and now she’s in this big bed that maybe she’s afraid of falling out of or there’s all the — you know, it’s just a lot — it seems bigger, I’m sure.  The whole room seems bigger to her now.  But she was crawling out, right?  That’s why you —

Chris:  She sure was, and she just did it once, and I thought like, okay, well, she figured it out, but, you know, maybe we’ve got a few weeks where she won’t try it every time, and even that night, put her in the crib — two minutes later, boom, she’s out of the crib.  She’s running towards the door.  So, yeah.  It was not really an option.  It was like, okay.  Well, I can’t have her flying out of the crib.

Alyssa:  I wonder if — and you’ll know if this will work for her — a lot of times when kids aren’t ready to transition, we can put them back in one of those sleep sacks with the arms out, and then when they’re in a sleep sack, they can’t get their feet up high enough to actually climb over.  And if she’s smart enough to then unzip the sleep sack and get out of it, you can flip the sleep sack, like, backwards so the zipper is in the back and she can’t reach the zipper.

Chris:  Oh, my gosh.

Alyssa:  We’ve had to do that for some kids, but it helps.  Like, she might want to climb out of the crib, but she won’t physically be able to anymore.

Chris:  Right.

Alyssa:  I don’t know if you think that would work for her.

Chris:  She’s such a physical little lady that I think that she would go nuts if she was, like —

Alyssa:  If her legs were restricted?

Chris:  Yeah.  Yeah.  And then the other thing is that, you know, we’ve got our next kid coming in, like, end of May, beginning of June, so it kind of feels like it’s inevitable that we have to do this transition, and I’d almost rather get it done with without also having a newborn to try to wrangle, you know?  So it’s a little bit like, dang, this day — I knew it would come.  And also, like, well, it’s kind of good timing.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Well, we don’t want to force it just because a baby’s coming.  Like, we could wait until — you know, baby’s not here until May or June.  You could wait until spring.  Maybe — you know, do you think Sam would understand if you asked her, okay, I know you’re nervous. Would it make you feel better to sleep in your crib again?  And even if you have it, like, completely torn apart and put away and the big bed up, like, you could put that crib in the nursery with the big bed temporarily again.  I just wonder how she would respond if you said, you know, it makes me sad that you’re nervous in the dark.  How do you feel about sleeping in your crib again, but you have to stay in the crib.

Chris:  Right.

Alyssa:  I don’t know.  It’s just so hard at this age.  Like, it totally depends on the kid.  Like, she might get that and be like, yes.  Yes.  I like that idea.  Put me back in the crib.  Or she might just look at you with a blank stare and be like, what are you trying to ask me here, lady?  You’re trying to reason with me?  Come on.  I’m two and a half!

Chris:  I think she’s a little bit of the, what are you trying to do here, lady.  But she is making progress with it.  It’s been, I don’t know, a month, maybe.  And it is getting easier.  Bedtime’s getting shorter.  She had a little bit where she — probably like a week or so where I would say three out of four nights of the week, she would wake up in the middle of the night and be awake and freaking out, and we would have to go get her, hang out with her for, like, an hour and then put her back down.  She’s gotten over that waking in the middle of the night part, and I think she’s — I can tell she’s proud of herself.  Things that have kind of worked are teaching her about, like, if you get nervous, take a deep breath.  That has worked, and then I have been toying with a reward chart, like a sticker chart, and she seems excited about it.  We have yet to put a single sticker on the chart.  So I don’t know, is she too young for something like that?

Alyssa:  Well, that’s a good segue into — okay, so I have the four Rs, and they’re kind of like your superpower for dealing with kids in big beds who want to pop out like Sam.  So the four Rs are rules, rewards, roleplay, and then returns.  So rules are just that.  Like, you can create a chart, but get her involved with it.  So if she likes stickers; if she wants a new doll — like, you could create a chart for a week, and once she gets a sticker on every day of that week, she gets to pick out something.  Or, you know, she really loves donuts, and she doesn’t get them that often.  You know, something that makes her super excited.  But then the rules have to be really simple.  Like, three of them.  Like, okay, Sam, let’s say the rules together.  One, stay in bed.  Two, be quiet.  Three, close your eyes.  But you can also make it fun.  Like, okay, what kind of animal is quiet, and what kind of animal is loud?  We don’t want to be the loud animal.  We want to be the quiet animal in bed.  You know, just think — and you know her best.  Like, you know what will trigger her little brain to be excited about this.  And like you said, we want her to wake up and be so proud that she did it.  And, again, the problem with doing this before three years old is she might need immediate gratification, and the reward chart just does not do it for her.  So she’s like, I did something good, but I have to wait all night for it, and then in the morning, I don’t even care anymore.

Chris:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  So that might be the tricky thing is, you know, just, you got to kind of work it to whatever works best for your own kid.  But if she lays in bed quiet and says the rules — you say the rules to her, and you leave, even if it takes her 20 minutes to fall asleep, if she’s lying there quiet and not getting out of bed and not being disruptive, let her.  Like, we want her to know her bed is not scary.  It’s a safe place.  So do whatever you have to do to figure out what’s making her nervous.  I also caution you about putting nightlights all over the room because we don’t want it bright in there.  That triggers her brain to stay awake instead of get sleepy.  So we don’t want it too bright in there.  So, yeah, maybe just come up with some rules and have her help you with them.  And then the rewards is kind of the second part of that, so it’s a positive consequence for following the rules, whatever those rules you made up are.  And if she hasn’t gotten a sticker yet, maybe the rules need to start a little easier.  Like, okay, the rules are, we brush our teeth.  We put on PJs.  We read one book.  And you need to kind of set a time limit because you don’t want to have to do this for an hour every night.  Make it very clear.  You get one book, one song, and five kisses or something.  Then I leave.  And if you say, then I leave, you really need to leave.

Chris:  Yes.  And don’t let her extend it.

Alyssa:  Right, because they’re so good at that!

Chris:  They’re geniuses!  For the sticker chart thing, you had said in your example, like, stay in bed, be quiet, and something else that was nighttime related…

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Close your eyes.

Chris:  Yeah.  Close your eyes.  So would you keep them all, like, in the same category?  Because what I’m doing right now — let me read to you my current reward chart.  Okay.  It’s a little all over the map.  One is picking up her toys.  Zero stickers.  One is staying in bed.  Again, zero stickers.  One is saying please and thank you.  Zero stickers.  And then another one is going potty.  So, I mean, it’s like everything that I want her to do.  I was just like, let’s put it on here.  So maybe I need to get more…

Alyssa:  Maybe focus it on just sleep right now.  Like, to be transitioning to a big girl bed and potty training and learning manners and all the things at once — I would just stick to sleep until she gets this figured out.  You don’t want to do rewards forever.  You want to give her a few weeks when she’s doing good, and then you get rid of the sleep rewards, and that would be helpful to then move on to, okay, now you get potty rewards.  You know what I mean?  And then once she’s going on the potty, now let’s work on your manners and cleaning up.  So we’re going to sing the clean-up song and you’re going to say please and thank you, and you’re going to help Mommy and whatever other manners you want.  But it might just be too overwhelming for her because it is kind of all over the place.

Chris:  Yeah.  Definitely.  I think she just is like, okay, whatever.  Sticker chart, I don’t get it.  Doesn’t mean anything to me.  Thanks, though.

Alyssa:  Well, and if the sticker chart doesn’t work, maybe — you know, what else could work for her?  What does she get super excited about?  Is it Skittles?  Like, you could give her two Skittles that day if she does something.  I don’t know.

Chris:  Right.  Like, she loves cookies.  Maybe she gets, like, to go pick out a big cookie from the bakery or something.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Something that she can’t stop talking about, because you know they get something on their brain and then they tell everybody.  You want her to be like, I’m going to get a cookie if I stay in bed all night.  And you’re like, yes.  You will.

Chris:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  So if stickers don’t do it for her, then figure out what does.  And then when she does do it, like the first night she does it, make her feel like a rock star.  High fives, hugs, you’re so great, you did such a good job, I’m so proud of you.  You know, you’re going to be a big sister, and you’re going to be the greatest big sister because you’re going to be able to show this baby how we sleep like a big kid.  And that will be really helpful, too, when new baby does come and you’ll have to explain to her, you know, you’re going to hear your little brother or sister crying in the night.  They’re okay, but, you know, don’t go check on them.  Don’t mess around.  Don’t talk.  Just stay in your own bed and sleep, and then we need you to be the good big sister and show baby how we sleep through the night.  Just so that she doesn’t — because she’s going to feel left out no matter what.  She’s used to getting all your attention, and now baby’s going to get most of your attention for a while.  Bedtime routine at that point will be a big deal for her.  You and your husband will want to make sure you have a dedicated, like — while one of you is with the baby, someone has to have a dedicated time with Sam where it’s only focused on her because she’s going to feel like she doesn’t get that anymore for a while.  You know how hard it is in that newborn stage.  They just need you 100% of the time.

Chris:  Right.  I know.  Bedtime is one of the things I feel most nervous about.  Like, I can’t even wrap my brain around putting two kids down at the same time.  So it feels important to get her sleeping good, and I feel like this is — you know, we’ve got some time still.  So I feel like it’s kind of working out, slowly but surely.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  And it will.  You do have time.  I think, again, like, when we were doing sleep training when she was a baby, consistency is still key.  Like, you have to make the rules, and you can’t stray from those because especially now, they know how to push, and I know that if I ask for X, Y, and Z, and Mom’s going to get it every time, then of course I’m going to ask for these things every night.  And she might be a little mad at first, but she’ll get over it.

Chris:  Yeah.  Stick to your guns.  You don’t think she’s ready to drop that nap, do you?

Alyssa:  I don’t think so.  At two — most — I mean, if she’s not tired at night or waking super early in the morning, that’s kind of when you know they’re ready to drop the nap.  She needs — you know, let’s say she needs 14 hours of sleep in a 24-hour period.  So that’s 12 hours at night and a 2-hour nap.  Now, as we get older, we kind of need less and less sleep.  You know, I think most toddlers through teenagers, even, still need 10, 11 hours of sleep.  So school-aged kids are not getting enough sleep when parents just tell them they need 8.  They still need 11.  My almost 8-year-old daughter gets 11 hours of sleep at night.  She needs it.  But when you notice Sam is just either not tired for that nap or when you give her a nap, she refuses to go to sleep on time, or she goes to sleep on time but starts waking up at 5:00 in the morning, she’s just getting too much sleep.  So instead of eliminating the nap altogether, you could drop it down from 2 hours to 1 hour and see if that helps.  And then, you know, maybe in the next 6 to 12 months, you could try dropping it.  There’s going to be a period of transition where some days, she’ll need it, and some days, she won’t, and that’s totally fine.

Chris:  She goes to school two days a week, and there, she will take a nap like a champion.  Her teachers are like, oh, she laid right down and put herself to sleep.

Alyssa:  Of course she did!

Chris:  Like, what?  How did you do that?  Teach me your ways!  And one of the things that they do at school is they have a sticker chart.  That’s where I picked up that thought because I was like, what’s working for you?  Please tell me!  Tell me all your secrets!  So they do the sticker chart, and then when they get, like, five stickers, they get to pick out a reward.  So maybe that’s like — she came home with a pink sparkly bracelet one day, and she thought she was the coolest girl in the world.

Alyssa:  Oh, maybe you buy, like, a little treasure box for her that she knows she gets to look in and pick something.  You know, that way it’s, like, there in the house; she can see it, and she knows she gets to dive into that treasure box every Sunday.  So she has to, you know, Monday through Saturday, has to get a sticker on the chart, and then on Sunday morning, she gets to choose a little prize from the treasure box.  That’s a good idea.

Chris:  I feel like she would be so geeked about that, like if she could see it and know there was, like, treasures inside.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I wonder if you could even find, like, a clear little locking — I’m almost picturing, like, what looks like a makeup case or something.

Chris:  Like a Caboodle?

Alyssa:  Yes!  A clear Caboodle filled with sparkly toys.  That’s a great idea.

Chris:  That would also just be so fun for me to put together!

Alyssa:  Right?  It would be, like, the cutest thing ever!

Chris:  No, I think that that would really work for her, though!  And, like, the reminder of being able to see it would be, I think, enough to keep it top of mind for her that, like, we’re going to work towards this.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Be a good incentive for her.

Chris:  Interesting!

Alyssa:  Yeah.  So maybe try that!

Chris:  I will!

Alyssa:  So the third R is roleplay, and this could work well for her if she, you know, has, like, a favorite stuffed animal or doll.  Like, you would use roleplay with that little stuffed animal and put them to bed.  So you’d kind of do a little condensed version of your bedtime routine with the stuffed animal.  So you could say, let’s make rules for — you know, my daughter has a teddy bear named Fuzzy.  So let’s set some sleep rules for Fuzzy.  Let’s put him to sleep and then give him a kiss, sing him a song, and then you kind of just close the door and go out into the hallway and wait.  And then you just wait a couple seconds and say, okay, I think he’s sleeping.  Let’s go check on him now.  That, in her mind, triggers, oh, I think when I go to sleep, Mom and Dad might be waiting out in the hallway, like, checking on me, and that makes them feel comfortable, even if you’re not out there.  And then you go in and say, oh, good job.  You know, Fuzzy’s sleeping.  Let’s put a sticker.  You could even make a little chart for the stuffed animal and give the little stuffed animal a sticker on their chart.  And, again, you know Sam best.  Maybe that works for her; maybe it doesn’t.  But it’s worth a try.

Chris:  Yeah.  I love that!

Alyssa:  And if you don’t make a chart, you could put a little sticker right on the stuffed animal’s hand, like right then and there, and be like, oh, my gosh.  It’s so great!  And then in the morning when Sam wakes up, you can say, okay, let’s go check on the stuffed animal, too, and see how they did.  And you just make it silly and fun, whatever — and they also kind of feel like they’re in charge, then, of this little stuffed animal’s sleep schedule.  And most two-and-a-half-year-olds like to be bossy, so…

Chris:  I think she would love that.  I think she would be so into it.  That’s a really fun one.

Alyssa:  So maybe you could make, like, a little sleep corner for the doll or stuffed animal.

Chris:  Yeah.  She does have a little crib for her babies.

Alyssa:  Oh, perfect.

Chris:  I love that.  Good one!

Alyssa:  And then the fourth one is returns.  So when you say in the middle of the night she wakes up and needs your help and you’re in there for an hour, you know,  you kind of want to — we don’t want to be in there for an hour, but you also don’t want to do the bedtime routine for an hour, so everything needs to be super quick.  Like, remember when she was a baby and we would just kind of let her fuss it out, but we would always go check on her.  But the check-ins were, like, super quick.  They’re quiet.  No talking.  We’re not there to entertain her, and especially now toddlers love attention.  So if she knows, okay, I’m nervous.  I’m scared.  I woke up in the middle of the night.  We obviously want to go comfort her.  But we also want her to know that you’re not going to lay there with her for an hour at 4:00 in the morning because you’re exhausted, too.  So it would be more of, like, going — whether she got out of bed and came to you or was just crying in her bed, you could go — you know, you could go lay down with her for a second, or not even lay down; just, like, lean on — kneel on the floor and shush her or something.  Like, you don’t even need to talk.  Just shush, give her a kiss, rub her hair, and then say, okay, it’s time to sleep.   Remember your sleep rules.  And then leave.  So you want to be in and out really quick again.  And she’s old enough to understand, like — and you can tell her, like, Mommy and Daddy are tired, too.  I need to go to sleep.  So you definitely don’t want to do — and you said she’s kind of over that, but hopefully she’s done, but if she did that again — but then just kind of apply that same thing, too.  If you put her in bed and then she pops right back out and you’re watching TV and all of a sudden there’s a little pitter-patter of feet behind you, just do it really silently and quickly.  And you don’t want to say — you want to keep it positive, if you do say anything.  You don’t want to say, oh, you got out of bed.  You don’t get a sticker.  You don’t want to say anything negative or talk about consequences at all.  Don’t remind them that they won’t get a sticker.  They just won’t get one in the morning, but we don’t want them to get all upset in the middle of the night, which makes it harder for them to go to bed.

Chris:  Interesting.  Yeah.  So have it be just a positive reinforcement but don’t, like, rub it in?

Alyssa:  Yeah.

Chris:  Like, well, there goes your sticker for the week.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  And I find myself doing that.  You know, my daughter can take forever getting ready for school, and I’m like, you’re this close to losing your iPad.  And then all of a sudden she’s crying, and here I am, I’ve got five minutes to get her out the door, and I just messed everything up because now I have to say, oh, I’m sorry, and console her, and now she’s crying and all upset, and she has to go out the door crying, and then I feel awful all day.  And I’m like, why did I just do that?  You know, like, I can talk to her after school about listening better.  It’s the same thing in the middle of the night.  We’re tired.  We’re furstrated.  They’re not listening to us.  And we’re like, you just lost your sticker.  And kind of get upset, and then they’re crying because they can hear that we’re upset, and they just lost a sticker so they’re sad.  So it’s not that you won’t do it ever, but just try to keep it in your mind.  Just try to keep it positive.  Like, I know you can do this.  You’re a big girl.  You can go to sleep.  I don’t know if that helps.

Chris:  That does help a ton.  And yeah, I’m sure there will be times where I’ll slip up and accidentally bring it up.

Alyssa:  None of us are perfect.  That’s why I try not to be too hard on myself.  But, gosh, sometimes it’s hard.  Do you think a sleep training clock would work for her?  Would she, like, understand a light turning on at a certain time?

Chris:  Okay.  So we do have one of those, the Okay to Wake clock, and I set it so that — well, it was right before daylight savings time, and I set it so that it would turn green at 7:00 a.m.  And since daylight savings time, she’s been awake much earlier, so like 6:00-ish, and she wakes up just kind of like — I don’t know.  It feels like she wakes up and thinks, like, what the heck?  Like, where am I?  What’s going on?  Got to find Mom.  And so I am up anyways, and I’ll just open her door and let her come out, but I’ve been thinking about how I can get her to stay in her bed longer.

Alyssa:  So when the time changed, did you adjust her schedule?

Chris:  We did.

Alyssa:  And it just didn’t really click?

Chris:  We’ve just been in a little bit of a funky timing thing where bedtime started taking a lot longer, so even though we start it at the same time, it would take her longer to fall asleep.  And then you would think that that would make her sleep in later, but of course, it has worked the opposite and she’s been getting up earlier.

Alyssa:  Well, that could be a sign, too, then, of that maybe you just need to try shortening that nap.

Chris:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  And maybe that will push your morning out a little bit.  So she’s normally getting two, and you could even ask, you know, at school — how long does she nap at school?

Chris:  Like, an hour.  An hour and a half at the very most.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Maybe ask them to —

Chris:  And same at home, too.

Alyssa:  — get her up after an hour and see if that helps.

Chris:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  Or 45 minutes, if she’s normally doing an hour.

Chris:  It’s just so terrifying to wake up a sleeping child.

Alyssa:  Do it slowly!  Go in gently.  I mean, even with a baby, you know, you would just kind of slowly maybe turn the lights on dim and sit on the bed and rub her back or something and slowly wake her up.  Doesn’t need to be loud and abrupt with glaring lights in her face.

Chris:  Interesting.  On one day of the week, she goes to Grandma and Grandpa’s house for the afternoon, and on those days, she generally doesn’t take a nap.

Alyssa:  Interesting.  How does she do at night those nights?

Chris:  Just a wreck.  She’s exhausted.  It’s super hard to keep her awake on the drive home, and it’s really hard to get her to bedtime.  And then bedtime just kind of falls apart because she’s so overtired.

Alyssa:  So why doesn’t she nap there?

Chris:  They just can’t get her down.  Because she’s a fighter, you know?  You got to be ready of the battle.

Alyssa:  It’s so funny.  She does it for everyone but those who are closest to her.  You know, like, she can do it at school.  Because it’s not their parents.  Like, they listen to everyone else other than parents and caregivers like relatives or whatever.  It’s just the hardest for us, and they know we love them the most, and they just push and push.  And usually we give in.

Chris:  Right.

Alyssa:  Which makes it so frustrating for us!  Yeah, so she can do it, but I get it.  If your parents don’t want to, like, even deal with that fight — but they too — I mean, if you’re going to try this, they could also have a sticker chart at their house where — you know, maybe it’s smaller things, that if she lays down and sleeps, she gets to pick out one thing from this jar when she wakes up.  So they could use their own version of that.  Because she obviously needs it.  That’s your first sign right there, when you answered, she’s a wreck.  So if she didn’t nap at all, then you would just be dealing with that every day.  I mean, she’s not ready.  Not ready to drop that yet.

Chris:  Well, that’s good for me!

Alyssa:  Even when she is ready, though, you can still make her have quiet time.  So let’s say in a year.  She’s three and a half or almost four, and she just doesn’t need to nap anymore.  When she’s at home, she just gets an hour of quiet time in her room.  So you still have that hour of reprieve, and she gets to play trucks or dolls or puzzles or color or whatever she likes to do, but she has to do that for an hour.

Chris:  And just be quiet in her room?

Alyssa:  Yep.  Just give her quiet time.  So I do have a section on a new sibling.  Expect some jealousy, like we talked about.  Well, you know, a lot of times, it’s — if the toddler’s in the crib still, they have this feeling of the new baby stealing their crib, but that shouldn’t be an issue since she’s already out of the crib.  I would just talk to her a lot about the new baby and how the baby is going to need you for a lot of things, but you’re still the big sister.  And then talk about them crying in the night.  They’re going to be hungry.  That’s why they’re crying.  They’re not sick or sad.  And that she just needs to stay in her own room in her own bed, and keep the expectations really clear.  And then, again, just keep using positive language.  Like, I know you can stay in bed because you’re such a good kid.  You’re such a big kid.  You’re a great big sister.  Just keep a lot of positive language.  And then really focus on her at bedtime.

Chris:  Yeah, and make sure to have one on one for that?

Alyssa:  Right.  That will be really important.  Do you think that they will ever — because I do have a section on siblings who share a room, and I did get asked by someone else who heard a different podcast to share some information about, like, if siblings ever share a room.  Do you think that the two of them would ever — I guess that might depend on if you have a girl or a boy?

Chris:  That’s true.  I mean, I think it’s cute, the idea of them sharing a room, but honestly, for that newborn phase, I can’t even — my brain can’t even comprehend how that would work.

Alyssa:  Well, yeah, newborn phase, usually the baby would be in your room in a pack and play or bassinet or something anyway.

Chris:  Right.

Alyssa:  But let’s hypothetically say you decide, you know, a few months in or something to move the crib into her room.  Ideally, you would put the baby to bed first and then Sam.  So, you know, by then, she — let’s say her bedtime is 7:30, but you’re going to put the baby down at 7:00.  That could be perfect.  So the baby goes down, and if you do any sort of sleep training, or let’s say you read through the plan I gave you originally, and you’re like, okay, at three months, we’re going to start doing some things.  Do that while baby’s still in your room, and then, you know, make sure that the new baby is — like, I know that after I put baby down, he or she is going to fuss for, like, 15 minutes and then fall asleep.  So that way you know, okay, once I transition — and even if — I mean, this could also work if the nursery is going to be right next to Sam’s room, like abutting walls.  It’s kind of the same as being in the same room, because she’s going to hear the baby all the time.  But you would know that I can put the baby down.  They’re going to fuss for, like, 15 minutes, but then I’m going to start at 7:30 putting Sam down, and then she’ll be asleep by 8:00.  Just keeping it really consistent and keeping her bedtime routine really consistent, but getting the baby’s out of the way.  And I think if you have to do them at the same time for some reason, you’re just going to have to divide and conquer so that she still feels like she’s got some, you know, one on one time with you.

Chris:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  I think letting her know that babies just wake up to feed, you know, especially at first, but let’s say baby’s three or four months old.  If the baby wakes up fussing, Sam will just have to know, like, it’s normal.  Leave the baby alone.  Don’t try to go do anything because then you’re going to wake the baby up more.  Just let the baby fuss back to sleep because that’s the last thing you want, to look at the monitor and Sam’s in there reading a book or singing a song or doing a whole dance routine!  Like, I know how to make the baby stop crying!  I’ll turn on some music and dance!

Chris:  I can picture it!  I can totally see it on the monitor playing out in front of my eyes!

Alyssa:  Disco ball going!

Chris:  That’s really helpful.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Just talk to her a lot!

Chris:  I feel like we’ve got a kind of a phased plan where it’s like, okay, first, let’s get her — let’s do the rules, rewards.  And I think the roleplay thing would be really fun, too, to practice bedtime with her toys and get that going for a while until she gets really good at that.  And then we can start talking about what it’s going to be like when the baby’s here and how she can be a really good big sister and teach her sister or brother how to stay in bed and be quiet and those sorts of things.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  You could even use a baby doll and pretend.  You know, if you call your baby something right now, like pretend it’s little peanut or whatever.  And then say, let’s teach your baby brother or sister to go to sleep.  And then when baby actually arrives, you can make her a part of that process.  Like, remember how you do that?  We’re going to shush baby.  Let me swaddle the baby, and then I’m going to teach you how to help me, like, shush the baby.  And she can sit by the crib and go “shhhh” or something.  Have her be part of that, and then you slowly walk out together.  Then she’ll feel like she’s actually helping and part of this process as a big sister instead of just feeling left out.

Chris:  Yeah.  Totally.  I could see her feeling really cool being, like, a part of the mom squad.

Alyssa:  Heck, yeah!

Chris:  Awesome.  This is really helpful, Alyssa.

Alyssa:  Well, thank you for doing this!

Chris:  Thank you for all your wisdom!

Alyssa:  Yeah.  You know I’m always here!

Chris:  I know how you knew the asking for a friend thing…

Alyssa:  I’m like, wait.  Is Sam two?  Are you asking about your own child?  It literally kind of took me back a minute.  I’m like, no way she’s two!

Chris:  Let’s just say someone has a kid who isn’t sleeping.  What would one do?

Alyssa:  Hypothetically… Well, cool.  It was so good to talk to you, and congrats again.  I’m super excited for you.

Chris:  Thank you so much.  I’m going for that VBAC this time.

Alyssa:  Awesome.  Before you go, I can give you a little shoutout.  Are you still doing both Biz Babysitters and Sweaty Wisdom or neither or one or the other?

Chris:  I am actually doing both.  Sweaty Wisdom had a name change, and now we’re Mindful Social Co.  So we made a little switch, but still doing that, and then Biz Babysitters had been kind of on hold, but my fire has been reignited with this pregnancy, because I’m like, God, I’m in it right now.  I know exactly what this feels like.  So that’s back in biz, too.

Alyssa:  You learned from last time what you need this time.

Chris:  Yeah.  Exactly.  So it’s fun to strategize on that.

Alyssa:  Cool.  Awesome.

Chris:  Thanks so much!

If you have any sleep questions or would like to inquire about a sleep consultation with Alyssa Veneklase, these can be done via phone and text not only with local West Michigan families, but families all over the country.  Contact us here!

 

 

Today Kristin and Alyssa talk about some interesting, and funny, and gross things that happened to their bodies during pregnancy and birth that were a bit unexpected!  You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

 

Alyssa:  Hi and welcome to the Ask the Doulas podcast.  I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas, and I am here with my business partner, Kristin, the other owner.

Kristin:  Hello!

Alyssa:  Hey.  So we had a podcast a while ago where we talked about things we wished we would have known postpartum.  And then we decided to talk about things we wish we would have known about pregnancy and just kind of talk about some of the weird experiences that we went through personally.  Maybe some funny things, maybe some gross things; who knows.  But yeah, what was your pregnancy like?  You had two.

Kristin:  Yes.  So with my daughter Abby, I had a pretty easy pregnancy up until 37 weeks.  My midwife used to call it the perfect pregnancy up until I got preeclampsia.  But yeah, I didn’t gain a whole lot of weight.  I wasn’t — I mean, I had a lot of nausea.

Alyssa:  Like, just in the beginning, or the whole time?

Kristin:  All of my pregnancy.  I was driving to Lansing every day for work, and I would pull over — I would plan out my day so I left really early because I would need to pee, so I would stop at the rest stop near Portland or, like, actually pull into a grocery store in Portland and use the bathroom because I could never make it the whole way to Lansing, and I also needed to walk around.  My legs just didn’t do that well driving and would get kind of tingly and needed to move.

Alyssa:  And that’s only an hour drive from here, right?

Kristin:  About an hour — depending on traffic, yeah.  An hour-ish.

Alyssa:  So in an hour to an hour and a half’s time, you couldn’t sit for that long or go that long without peeing?

Kristin:  And there were multiple times that I would have to pull over and throw up on the highway.  And that was part of it is I was so nauseous driving or being in a car, and there were times that I remember going to a friend’s party in the summer, and Patrick — I had him pull over and I threw up on the road.

Alyssa:  On the way to a party?

Kristin:  Yeah.  Yeah.

Alyssa:  So was that all day long, every hour to an hour and a half, you would have to get up and pee or you’d feel nauseous or you had to move your legs?

Kristin:  Mm-hmm.

Alyssa:  That’s tiring.

Kristin:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  But you still consider it a perfect pregnancy?  Like, it wasn’t…

Kristin:  I had nauseas.  Yeah.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Wasn’t that bad.

Kristin:  And then toward the end of my pregnancy, I also had the restless leg syndrome, so I would get up in the middle of the night and have to, like, hop on one foot and wake Patrick up because my cramping in my leg was so intense.  But I’ve always had vein problems with the circulation in my legs, so…

Alyssa:  So that was probably a circulation issue?  While lying down, like that made it worse?

Kristin:  Yeah.  It was only — I only had the cramping when laying down.  And I didn’t know until later about using magnesium or Epsom salt baths and different things you can do when you are dealing with cramping.  It wasn’t anything — I don’t think I brought it up at an appointment.  I just was like, okay, I’ve read about it.  Whatever.  It’s weird, but yeah.  So what did you have that was —

Alyssa:  Well, what about with Seth?  How was your pregnancy?  Was it different with Seth’s?

Kristin:  Totally different.  Seth was so much easier.  He was also a much bigger baby by almost three pounds, so I was showing a lot earlier.  Like, I felt like I was instantly had, like, the little baby bump.  But yeah, he was a chill baby in the womb.  Abby moved around a lot.  I used to call her my little goldfish.  Like, she was in a fishbowl and I could feel her movements very early.  And with him, I was always like, is he all right?  He’s not kicking me.  He’s not, like, in my rib.  He’s not moving.  And so I would have to, like, are you in there?  He’s just sleeping and chill.

Alyssa:  Poke him a little bit to make him move around.  He’s like, leave me alone.

Kristin:  I’m just sleeping, Mom.  But I definitely was showing earlier and felt just — I didn’t have the nausea that I did with Abby, but with him, I just felt bigger and heavier.  But I didn’t gain more weight at all.  Same amount, like about 32 to 35 pounds.

Alyssa:  Yep, my pregnancy was — like, I always tell people if I could be a surrogate, like, I would just keep having — I don’t want more children, and we went into this knowing we were only having one, so I just cherished every moment.  But I didn’t have any nausea, like ever.  I slept great.  Everything was literally perfect.

Kristin:  Did you have heartburn or anything?

Alyssa:  One day.  Literally, one day.  I remember sitting in my office at — you know, I worked at a construction company, so it’s all these guys, and I’m like, does anyone have Tums?  Like, I don’t even know.  What do I need?  I’ve never had heartburn before.  Nobody did!  My boss was like, I think I have this old pack in this cupboard in this bathroom, and they had expired 15 years ago, but I was like, screw it.  I’m taking some.

Kristin:  Something!

Alyssa:  I remember mixing baking soda with water, and I drank that whole thing down, because I’m like remembering, you know, basic chemistry and acids and bases, and I’m like, I think I’ll just drink some baking soda and see if it helps.  And it didn’t.  But I literally only had it one day.  I didn’t gain a ton of weight, either, but since I was only having one, like, I wanted to look pregnant so bad.  So bad.  And I’m really, really tall with a really long torso, and it just took forever.  I felt like I looked pregnant at maybe 30 weeks.  So I bought — I remember finally seeing this tiny little bump.  I mean, literally, like I could have just eaten too many burgers and fries that day.  And I was like, yes!  There she is!  And I went out and bought maternity pants and all this stuff, and then the maternity pants would fall off because I just wasn’t ready for it.  But I really, really, really loved being pregnant; loved looking pregnant; loved how I felt when I was pregnant.  I worked out normally through the whole pregnancy, and then finally it was — I remember the day that I think she must have just dropped.  It was like my hips moved, and I was like, oh, what was that?  And I could no longer do the workouts I was used to doing.  I went from literally going to kickboxing and yoga and all these classes to, like, okay, I’m working out at home now.  I can’t run.  I can maybe walk.  And then I can no longer stand up — the whole — even 35 weeks pregnant, I was standing up to put pants on and doing everything normally.  I’m like, okay, now I have to sit down to get dressed.  Sit down to put my shoes on.  So that was the biggest change.  And my boobs got huge, which I didn’t expect to happen that soon.  I thought that it would — it got even worse after the baby was born, after she was born and my milk came in.

Kristin:  Like, what size bra do I buy?  Because they’re huge now.  Are they going to stay huge?  What do I buy?

Alyssa:  I was just busting out of my regular bras because I didn’t know.  Are they going to stay like this?  Are they going to get bigger?  Will they go back down?  What’s happening?  What will happen?

Kristin:  Yeah, and I was still nursing Abby during my pregnancy with Seth, so I didn’t have a big supply, but I had milk throughout my entire pregnancy.  So that was weird.  That’s how it was.  And then my milk came in after I had Seth, and it was like, whoa.  So much!  Didn’t know what to do with it.  Luckily, I had Abby, so she’s like, okay, I’ll have the milk.  Great!

Alyssa:  I’ll take it!

Kristin:  Yeah.

Alyssa:  So when you were pregnant, did you have really weird dreams?  I do remember hearing that you could, but that was one of the most noticeable strange things for me was that I had really wild dreams.

Kristin:  Yeah.  I felt like they were — some of them were so lifelike.  Like, I felt like I was living the dream.

Alyssa:  Like, very vivid?

Kristin:  Yes.  Very vivid.  Like, almost in full color, just — yeah, like a movie.  But I didn’t have night terrors like some women do.  I couldn’t remember all of my dreams.  Some people would keep a dream journal, I know, during pregnancy and try to record.  Did you keep a journal?

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I’ve always been a good journaler, and especially during pregnancy.  Again, knowing this was probably our only one, I wrote down a lot, and I did write down a lot of dreams.  One that I remember most vividly is I gave birth to a kitten, and the kitten was adorable, but I remember wrapping it, like swaddling it, and then telling Brad, this is a really cute kitten, but I hope next time we have a baby that’s a human.

Kristin:  That is awesome!

Alyssa:  Oh, and then another one is Finn came out, and she was a baby, but she could talk, and so she looked at me straight in the eye, and said, well, aren’t you lucky?  You have a baby that can tell you what she needs.  And I was like, this is amazing!  This is great!  Yeah, just really, really strange.  Really strange ones.

Kristin:  I can’t remember anything specifically, but I do remember that they were very vivid and colorful.

Alyssa:  What about hair and skin changes?  Like, I know I had friends who their nails grew long and their hair was so beautiful.  And I had the opposite.  It’s like she drained all the nutrients from me.  My hair got super stringy.  My nails were really thin and would break a lot.  And then it finally went back to normal after I had her.  But those people who get the beautiful hair during pregnancy, those are the ones who it starts falling out.

Kristin:  They lose it in clumps.

Alyssa:  So I didn’t have the hair loss, but it’s because I didn’t have gorgeous hair during pregnancy.

Kristin:  Yeah.  And I felt like I did have — I grew more hair with Abby, but with Seth I was nursing, so I was depleted, anyway.  So yeah.  But I didn’t get a lot of weird hair growth.  My belly button popped out, like when my belly popped.  My belly button was probably four inches or so out.  You could see —

Alyssa:  Four inches out?

Kristin:  You could see it in photos.  Like, with the belly, the belly button was like, boom.

Alyssa:  With both pregnancies?

Kristin:  Yeah.  And I always had an outie belly button, but it never was, like, protruding all the way out.

Alyssa:  So do you think pregnancies with that belly button that pops out is people who already have an outie belly button?

Kristin:  I don’t know.

Alyssa:  I wonder what the stats are on that because I don’t have an outie, and I never got — I mean, obviously, because the baby’s pushing on it, it got closer to the — you know, there was less of a hole there.  But it never popped out.

Kristin:  Maybe someone with a medical background could explain that.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Someone, please answer this question!  Or I could Google it, I suppose.

Kristin:  But it does make sense that if you had an outie and — I mean, I really popped.  Because of my frame, I was all belly with both of my kids, and Seth was bigger, so it was even more pronounced in the photos.  But I had friends that asked me, and they’re like, so is my belly button going to look like yours?  I don’t know!  And theirs never popped out, so it’s definitely not for everyone.  People can have hair growth in different places in their body, and the nails, like you mentioned.

Alyssa:  You know what, I feel like I did get hairier on my body, which was not a good thing.  You know, I would have rather had the luscious hair on my head.  I do remember, like, my belly looked fuzzy.  I mean, I kind of have peach fuzz anyway, but I feel like it was dark.

Kristin:  Yeah.  Some people get the line around going up their stomach.

Alyssa:  I didn’t get that, either.

Kristin:  I didn’t either.  But, yeah, there’s some definite weird changes in pregnancy.

Alyssa:  Finn was born covered in, like, black hair.  Like, not all.  I shouldn’t say covered.  She wasn’t like a monkey, but she had —

Kristin:  And she’s so blonde!

Alyssa:  Yeah.  She had dark hair on her head, which she lost it all, but all — her shoulders and her back had this, like, black peach fuzz, and I remember Brad looking at me and going, oh, my God, will that go away?  I was like, yes.  It will.  We had a fur baby!  What is going on?

Kristin:  That’s awesome.

Alyssa:  But yeah, it all fell off, but unfortunately so did the hair on her head, and she was bald for about a year.

Kristin:  Right?  Yeah.  That happens and people don’t expect it.  Or the hair can be really dark and then be light.  There’s so many weird changes with babies, as well.  My kids were covered in vernix.  I don’t know if Finn was?

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I mean, quite a bit, when I look at pictures.  Not like the — not, like, super thick, where it looks like you could peel it.

Kristin:  Like, that cheesy kind of it.  Yeah.

Alyssa:  You had a lot, huh?  You had excessive?

Kristin:  I didn’t know as much about the benefits of it.  I would have, like, rubbed it in.  But I definitely — I mean, we kept it on them a bit until they sponge bathed it off.

Alyssa:  I remember my boobs getting really veiny.  Like, in producing milk.

Kristin:  Oh, 100%, yes.  You could see the veins all over.

Alyssa:  And I didn’t even really notice it until Brad one time was like, why are you so veiny?  And I’m like, what do you mean, veiny?  And then I had a tank top on.  I think it was in summer, and I was like, oh, my God, I am veiny!  It’s like they just kind of — it was like they were going to pop right through.  My skin became transparent or something.

Kristin:  Yes.  That is definitely…

Alyssa:  And then it got even worse when I was actually nursing.

Kristin:  Yeah.  I was going to say, that continues through nursing, and then after, things go — a lot, most everything, with pregnancy goes back to normal after either nursing or delivery, so depending.  But yeah, I don’t think I have any strange after-effects, like things that listed beyond pregnancy, that I didn’t have before, other than getting varicose veins, which is genetic for me.  They were more pronounced and worse with Seth, and so — and I’m still off and on getting treatment for it because my legs ache, and as I mentioned, like I had the restless leg syndrome.  So that is — I would say that’s my biggest lingering thing is problems with circulation in my legs.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I don’t think I have anything either.  I mean, the basic, you know.  Your bladder’s not as strong, but if only every — I mean, probably every woman in general, but even during pregnancy, if you go see a physical therapist — you know, I saw a wonderful woman named Joellen at Hulst Jepsen, and she literally changed everything.  I don’t think people understand.  Like, there is — you can do physical therapy, and it’s not just Kegels, and you can go Kegels the wrong way, and you can actually do Kegels too many times and then it has the opposite effect.  I just really learned a lot, and it helped tremendously.  Like, even now, seven and a half years after giving birth, I still had to get up once, sometimes twice a night, to pee.  And when I remember to do these exercises, I sleep all night long.  I wake up and I go pee.  But I can tell if, for like, a week, I just kind of forget about it, two or three nights into it, I’m waking up at 4:00 in the morning every day to go pee.  I’m like, oh, shoot, I haven’t been doing my exercises.  And there’s a very specific way to do them, and it’s so easy.  I could literally be doing them right now, and it helps instantly.  But people just — you know, your mom tells you it just is what it is.

Kristin:  You’re never going to be able to jump on the trampoline.

Alyssa:  Yep.  You’ll never be able to do jumping jacks.  You’ll never be able to run.  Now, granted, when I sneeze, I still do have to cross my legs and sometimes go change my underwear because I peed a little bit.  So I probably should do the exercises more, that means.

Kristin:  Yeah.  I noticed it.  I was doing a virtual 5K with some friends, and I was like, my bladder just — I feel like I need to, yeah, empty my bladder right now.  It just doesn’t — I should probably go see a physical therapist, I think, because the concrete running was not ideal for me.  I couldn’t imagine being a marathoner.  That was just a 5K.

Alyssa:  Nope.  Not for me.

Kristin:  For me, the books you read and classes you take, it’s like, yeah, you’re going to be potentially gassy in pregnancy and not know it, and I was working at the house in the later part of my pregnancy in Lansing in communications, and I remember huddling around with some male coworkers, and I passed gas in front of them, but it was silent, but it was very smelly.  And they were all like — and they knew it was me, and they didn’t want to —

Alyssa:  They didn’t blame it on each other?  They knew it was you?

Kristin:  Yeah.  They knew it was me.  I knew it had to me, and it was like, this is a real problem.  So I apologized and walked away.

Alyssa:  I didn’t know farting was a pregnancy issue.  I don’t even remember reading that.

Kristin:  Yeah.  It is.

Alyssa:  I guess I didn’t have it.  Or if I did, I was just farting my whole pregnancy without knowing it.  I don’t remember it at all.

Kristin:  I remember in childbirth classes, like, people would pass gas.  Yeah.  That’s just how it is.

Alyssa:  I mean, I was nervous about the whole pooping on the table.  I mean, that was my biggest fear.  Oh, my God, am I going to poop in front of my husband?  And I don’t think it ever happened.

Kristin:  But that is one of the most common fears that my clients have is pooping during labor and having people see it.  But it’s not a big deal.

Alyssa:  The nurses just kind of sweep it away, right?

Kristin:  Yeah.  You don’t even know.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I remember asking Brad.  I was like — a friend was like, yeah, I think I pooped on the table, and I was like, Brad, did I — he was like, no.  I mean, not that I know of.  I don’t think so.  I’m like, okay, good.  Even if I did, he’s —

Kristin:  Not everyone does.  I mean, not all of my clients do.

Alyssa:  I remember going, like, specifically going to the bathroom that morning, and thinking, good.  I went.  Not that I can’t go again, but I had that thought in my mind.  I hope that the day I give birth, I poop in the morning so that I don’t do it in front of my husband on the table.  That was a legitimate fear.

Kristin:  Yeah.  It makes sense.  I mean, it’s weird.  Bodies do so many weird things in pregnancy, and we can talk about some more of the birth experiences later in a future podcast.

Alyssa:  Did your water break?

Kristin:  In my labor?  With my first, while I was pushing, my water broke.  And then with Seth, it was — I’d gotten to the hospital.  I was in pretty active labor, and I remember, he was so low.  I felt a ton of pressure the second I got to the hospital.  It just felt like I needed to empty my bladder constantly.  So I was toilet-sitting, which is great for labor.  I always tell my clients to do it.  And then I remember doing hands and knees on the floor of my room.  Patrick was out in the hallway calling our friends who were going to take Abby from the babysitter — actually, my parents had Abby.  Never mind.  But he was in the hall, and he could hear the pop of my water breaking from the hall on the phone with our friends.  And so it was that loud, and I had a long skirt on, and the water went — it was like a huge pool, and everything was soaked, so that I was naked after that.

Alyssa:  So you were in active labor in regular clothes?  You still had —

Kristin:  I had planned to be in a long skirt and a nursing tank, was my choice for labor.  And I had a pad and underwear, but it was like, boom.  So then my doulas took off my skirt, and then I was naked for the rest of the time.

Alyssa:  My water broke, but it was totally — like, that’s what you expect to happen.  Like, from the movies, like, it just is the huge explosion and water everywhere.  When realistically — I think in our other podcast, I said, like, 30%, but I think it’s half that.  I think it’s 10 to 15% of women.  So it’s very, very low.  It’s highly unlikely your water will actually break.  But mine did lying in bed.  And I was laying there, and it woke me up.  I felt like a — I don’t know.  Like, when your period first starts and, like, you can feel some blood coming out.  It was almost like that kind of feeling.  So I got up, and I was like, well, I’m awake now.  I better go pee.  And I climbed out of bed, and went, oh.  And I remember, like, grabbing myself and then kind of waddling to the toilet, and I sat down, and I’m like, okay, wait.  Okay, wait.  My pants are wet.  My underwear is wet.  Like, what is this?  Did I pee myself?  I’m going through all these thoughts.  Did my water break?  But it’s not, like, gushing.  I don’t remember a smell.  I pictured, like, this big gush of water, and it wasn’t.  It was like a slow trickle.

Kristin:  Yeah.  You had a slow leak.   Yeah.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  So I’m sitting on the toilet, and I go pee, but then I put a pad on, and I realize that it’s just a constant trickle, so I better call my midwife, and I did.  And when you go into triage, they always check that, because they’re like, oh, yeah, you think your water broke, but…

Kristin:  I’ve had clients think their water broke and it was a trickle, and then it was pee.  Like, the baby’s so low that —

Alyssa:  And I’ve heard that.  So then they check, and she’s like, no, sure enough, that’s amniotic fluid.  You’re good.  So that was — I mean, I think I slow leaked from — if my water broke at maybe 4:00 in the morning, and I ended up in the hospital — I went in at noon.  So it was a long time of it just kind of slowly leaking out.  I just felt like I was peeing myself a little bit every time I took a step.

Kristin:  And did it continuously leak throughout your labor in the hospital, or did you feel —

Alyssa:  That, I don’t even remember.  I mean, by the time I was in the hospital bed, contractions were, like, pretty…

Kristin:  You were focused, doing your work.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Yeah, I don’t remember.  But I think we have this notion in our heads of what your water breaking will be like, and probably it won’t even break, and if it does, it could be any number of ways.

Kristin:  And we also expect pregnancy to either be really life-changing where you can’t do any of your normal things and don’t have the energy to work out and all of that or birth to just be like in the movies where you’re screaming and in pain.  But the reality can be so different from child to child, pregnancy to pregnancy.  Your energy levels can be different based on nutrition and exercise and age, of course.   I had my kids at an older age, so it’s much different than my clients who are 22.  Like, being 39 with my second pregnancy.  There’s some of that.  But what else was different to you than what you imagined either in pregnancy or in your labor?  I know you mentioned, like, after delivery, the pushing down on the stomach and all of that at one point.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  So one of our listeners actually had that question or that comment of, after listening to our postpartum one, she was like, I didn’t realize that after I gave birth, they were going to palpating my uterus through the top of my stomach.  And I do remember that.  They would come in and push on it to make sure it was shrinking.  And then one of the — you know, you know that you have a baby hooked to an umbilical cord, which is hooked to a placenta, but I don’t think most women — and men, like Brad was really thrown off — you have to birth a placenta after the baby.  It comes out, and he’s like, oh, my God, it’s huge!  It is a giant organ.  I don’t remember that happening.  I remember she came out, and I was just relieved, and then she’s on my chest, and I remember them saying, you still have to push out your placenta, and I was kind of like, what?  And I have no recollection of how it came out, if it was hard or easy.

Kristin:  Yeah, because then you’re so focused on baby.  It’s like that isn’t even a big deal, and it’s a pound or so.  For most people, it’s not as dramatic as birthing a baby.  It’s pretty easy.  Sometimes there can be issues.  It can get stuck.

Alyssa:  I think she was probably getting weighed and stuff at that time, so I probably was just like, oh, okay, I need to push a couple more times?  Because I do remember her being on the scale and stuff over there.  So it was probably after I birthed the placenta that they put her on my chest.  But yeah, I don’t remember it being hard.  It was just kind of weird.  I was like, oh, my God, that was in there?  Like, that’s as big as the baby!  No wonder!

Kristin:  It’s amazing.  I didn’t want to see it.  I remember my midwife asking me if I wanted to see the placenta after I had given birth to Abby, and I was like, no.  Gross.  I didn’t like blood at that time.  No thanks!

Alyssa:  And now have many placentas have you seen?

Kristin:  I love placentas, and I wanted to see with Seth, but with Seth’s pregnancy, I wanted to do — like, he was my last, and I wanted to do all the things.  So, of course.  And I saw, like, the front and the back and wanted to, like, examine it after Seth, and I wasn’t a doula at that time, so it was much different.  But I think the placenta’s beautiful.  It’s amazing.  But not everyone digs seeing the placenta.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  It’s like a big organ flinging out of your body.

Kristin:  Yeah.  Women are amazing, and bodies are amazing.  But yeah, birth can be weird.  Pregnancy is certainly different.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  I remember — and maybe it is because I’m very tall and slender with a long torso, but it was like all of a sudden, this — like, this whole area, it was just gone.  I mean, my stomach wasn’t back to normal immediately, but it was just gone.  And that’s really weird.  You don’t think about — like, you’ve held this, grown this baby inside for so long, and then all of a sudden, she’s not there anymore.  And as happy as you are to have her in your arms and meet this baby, it’s like, oh, but you’re not protected in here anymore, and I can’t feel those movements anymore, which are really cool, but I think probably that’s because I loved being pregnant so much.  If I had had a really hard pregnancy, it’d probably be like, great.  I’m happy you’re out.  You’re not jabbing my ribs and kicking my bladder all day long.

Kristin:  And you weren’t on bedrest for three weeks, and I was.  Yeah.  Things like that.  But I did love that, touching the belly and connecting and playing music and talking to my babies in the womb.  And I remember being at a political training for women who wanted to run for office, and I was pregnant with Abby at the time, and I stood up and gave my pitch, my stomp speech, and I was holding my belly.  And I remember we got feedback after, and they’re like, you really shouldn’t be touching your belly and connecting in that way.  And I’m like, it’s just what I do.  It’s natural for me to touch my belly when I stand.  But I was getting feedback that it was not a good thing, and I needed to keep my hands down and be strong.  So I remember after giving birth, not having that belly, and being so used to —

Alyssa:  Like, what do I do with my hands?

Kristin:  Right.  Having the baby in the womb to connect with, and even my first shower in the hospital after Abby.  It’s like your stomach isn’t how it used to be, but you don’t — you can see everything, your feet, you knees again.  It’s like, whoa.  This is weird.  It’s a big change for women.  So yeah, to get used to that adjustment, that first shower can be a big thing.  And, like, being able to fit into your normal clothes.  Like, when I got into my old jeans, I was, like, yes.  So that took a bit, but yeah.  But everything can be so different, and my friends had completely different pregnancies than I did.  Some were really easy.  Others were — you know, had to be induced or had physical issues.  So, yeah.  But it’s fun.  I was pregnant with two of my best friends at the same time.  I was pregnant with Seth, and our kids have grown up together, and we had completely different experiences in birth and pregnancy.

Alyssa:  Yeah.  Had I started younger, I would have had more, and knowing how much I loved it, I would love to keep having them.  But…

Kristin:  But we’re curious to hear what you found to be different than what you expected it to be or weird things about pregnancy and birth that you didn’t fully understand until you experienced it yourself.  It’s one thing to hear a story from a friend or to read something in a book, but to actually go through it yourself, like, the heartburn or acid reflux —

Alyssa:  Farting!

Kristin:  Or the farting!  Like, whatever it might be, or having milk come out of your breasts when your pregnant or getting some of that crust on your nipple and looking at it like, whoa, is this normal?

Alyssa:  Yeah.  So maybe leave us some comments about your stories or give us some story ideas for the future!  Thanks for listening.  This has been the Ask the Doulas Podcast.