Author name: Alyssa Veneklase

Preparing for Your Hospital Birth: Podcast Episode #253 Read More »

Child loss with Christi Kmecik of Written Hugs Designs: Podcast Episode #252

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Christi Kmecik shares her journey with loss and how she was drawn to create a beautiful line of grief cards. She also gives tips on how to support someone who is grieving.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to chat with my friend Christi Kmecik. Christi is the owner and founder of Written Hugs Designs. She’s been married to her husband Gary for over 13 years. She has three kids, and she started Written Hugs Designs to help people feel more seen, more connected, and less alone.

Welcome, Christi!

Thank you! Happy to be here!

I would love to learn a bit about your journey, and being that Ask the Doulas supports families from the early family planning stage through the toddler years, I’d love to hear more about how your business helps families with all different types of loss.

Yeah, happy to share. I’ve been through a lot of different kinds of loss myself in this space. I’ve been through miscarriages, and it was really through the seasons of miscarriages in my life that I first began to realize how uncomfortable we are as a society with grief, with pain, with loss, especially when it comes to babies or miscarriages or stillbirths. And my experience led me to circles of other grieving parents who had different stories to mine, but we all had a very similar feel, that society in general doesn’t know how to show up for us, doesn’t know how to make space for us. And that was kind of the beginning of my desire to help change things. Written Hugs Designs – I started it in hopes of helping people connect through the hard things when words are hard to find, and acknowledging how holidays are harder when you’re grieving. I remember the first Christmas after my first miscarriage, and it just felt like the rest of the world had already moved on, and I still couldn’t breathe. I really found that in sitting in different supportive circles or in my own life experience, that it seemed like everyone else was grieving an announcement and I was grieving a lifetime. It was a very disconnected experience of grief and perception and reality and all of the things.

So what I do when I design a card is I’m trying to help bridge the gap for people to feel more seen. I think these cards should exist. I think some of the these things are hard to say for the average person, and I am somebody who values words very deeply. Words are sacred to me, and I also empathize a lot with other people and what they’re going through, so I’m happy to create these things in an effort that the person receiving a card from someone feels seen, feels less alone, feels more connected and not isolated and disconnected like I felt through so many things.

That is so lovely. And I do feel like it’s hard with traditional cards to really express the deep sorrow that we have when our friends or family members experience a loss. And since you are such an empathetic individual by nature and have personally experienced many types of loss, the meaning behind your cards – and I know when you gifted me a card, it was so beautiful. You’re an artist, so the images on the cards – you create them yourself, so it’s not just the messaging. There’s so much beauty in the gift that you give your customers and families alike.

Thank you. I’m glad you brought up the artwork, too. That’s definitely something that I keep in mind as I create it, of what something feels like or how I’m feeling at the time as I’m creating it, in an effort to also bridge that gap and an effort to also have some kind of emotional connection even before the card is opened and read.

I love it. So other types of cards that can be helpful, other than infant loss – give us examples of all of the different cards that you’ve created and how people can find your cards, where they can purchase them.

Yeah, my cards fall into a few categories. One is straight sympathy where they’re created either with a specific kind of relationship loss in mind, or in general, coming alongside somebody who you know is going through something, going through their grief journey, and you want to come alongside them and say something more than just “My Sympathies.” Here’s an example of one of those.

As the waves of grief come, remember you are not alone. Please reach out for support. Let us lift the burdens that you can share so the weight of it all doesn’t pull you under. We are here for you and so sorry for you loss.

Beautiful.

So there’s cards like that, that aren’t necessarily about the relationship specifically. Or I have cards that are about the relationship specifically. I have cards that are coming for loss of babies, multiple, loss of baby, loss of baby boy, loss of baby girl, loss of daughter, loss of son, among other relationships, as well. So that’s the straight sympathy cards.

Then I have holiday or celebration sympathy cards. They acknowledge how this particular celebration or gathering may be harder because you’re also grieving. Grieving the loss of a child during Christmas or the loss of a loved one during Christmas; grieving a loss over Mother’s Day, or infertility during Mother’s Day, or where Mother’s Day is both joyous and sorrowful; if you happen to have joy as well during that day, but you’re also grieving the loss of a child. I have a both/and card for Mother’s Day and Father’s Day.

A birthday card for somebody who is also grieving. Cards like these really acknowledge how the celebration itself, society itself, doesn’t tend to make space for our realities when we’re also grieving, so I decided to make them in hopes that those people don’t feel more disconnected and more “other” and more alone in their reality because we haven’t decided to make space. I have made space for them in these cards.

I have cards that lean into positive affirmation, into encouragement. I think these are a really beautiful thing that could be touching to this community. Cards that say, you are enough. You matter. You are loved. You are brave. You can do hard things. These kinds of words of encouragement that we may not be telling ourselves as we’re in the thick of it, but we really need to hear.

And then the last kind of card that I make is something called a keepsake prompt card. And they are geared more toward the happy celebrations where you want to be intentional in the connection with somebody, so there are prompts inside to fill out. If it’s a birthday, they say things like, my favorite thing we do together is _____. If I could give you anything in the whole wide world, I would give you _____. I hope you always know _____. It’s a really beautiful way to stop, be intentional, say the things that maybe you haven’t said before, and I find it to be a really touching way to connect with someone instead of just signing your name in another card.

So those are the kinds of cards that I have, and they’re all really geared toward intentional connection, especially when words are hard to find.

So as you described some of even your affirmation cards, I’m thinking of our doula clients who may be on bedrest, who may be celebrating a pregnancy but also grieving a prior loss and they’re in that in between space. And then just a simple, you are loved, you are enough – all of that can make a difference in a time where it is stressful and you feel like one foot is grieving and then the other part of your body is wanting to celebrate and be joyous, but you’re torn. It’s like you’re almost split in half. And you had mentioned multiples. We work with a lot of twin and triplet clients. There may be a loss of one of the babies, and then they’re still stuck in too many different emotions, and people don’t know what to say or how to be there for them. And sometimes people say the wrong things, like “At least you have one healthy baby of the twins.” When you have these cards or these prompts, it can make a big difference because as you said at the start of our conversation, Christi, words matter, and sometimes those words can sit with you. Even when I’ve attended births as a doula and hospital staff says something, like again, “At least you have a healthy baby,” or some of those things that can really hurt. “You should be thankful even though you had a traumatic birth or didn’t get what you wanted.” Even processing birth trauma, it can be helpful to have a card or a friend listen and really feel like you’ve been heard.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think you hit it right on the head with your examples. “At least” – starting the sentence that is spoken to somebody who is grieving, is going to be followed with some kind of invalidation, some kind of taking permission away to feel what they’re feeling. And I’ve found that it does the opposite. It doesn’t bring comfort to the griever. It makes them feel more unseen. It makes them feel more misunderstood, and it could lead to feeling like, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just be happy? And the answer is, because you’re grieving. It’s normal. It’s okay to grieve that you had a traumatic birth. It’s okay to do that because it’s within us and it needs to come out. And when we try to ignore it and shove it down, it will come out sideways. What a gift of a doula to be able to walk someone through permission to grieve in that space. Sometimes we are so vulnerable when we are pregnant, expecting, going through birth, having just had birth, whatever step along the way we are, and having a doula that gives us permission to grieve is really powerful. It’s really powerful. I know for me, I’ve had many people in my life come alongside me and simply give me permission to grieve, and I’m so grateful for them because I didn’t know I could do that. I didn’t know I could do that within my own self, but the fact that they did it for me – now I know I can do that. But at the time, I really needed that support from somebody else, someone outside myself, to understand what it was. It’s grief. Understand it’s not wrong. It simply is, and you have permission to feel it and move through it. It’s just a really powerful thing that you can give to people.

It really is. And you mentioned different milestones, like holidays or the anniversary of what would have been the birthday for baby. What are times that our audience, who may not have personally suffered loss, can really keep in mind when trying to be sensitive, and if they’re thinking of sending a card, what would be appropriate? You had mentioned Christmas or Mother’s Day.

I think if they celebrate Christmas, that’s a big one. For many people who celebrate Christmas, it’s got so many personal and societal expectations of how it’s happy and bringing everyone together, and then you have all these expectations that you have for what it will look like with the baby that you’re expecting. When it doesn’t end up happening, if you lose your baby, if you miscarry like I did, this Christmas doesn’t look the way it should because I should have been eight months pregnant now, or the gifts we would have been given would have been all about baby. There’s just so many things about it that feel wrong to you, but you also feel like you can’t talk about it because it feels like everyone else has moved on. Acknowledging that with a card that simply says, it may feel like the world has moved on, but I want you to know that you matter and you’re not alone and you are seen – it’s a gift that will help them release the feeling of being alone.

The other one that I think is really powerful, I have cards for the month anniversary, acknowledging it. My miscarriage of twins happened in July, so acknowledging how July itself is harder because there are things that my body remembers about this month that I can’t just ignore. And if I’m going through it, to have someone else acknowledge that, hey, I just want you to know that I’m thinking about you, and I understand how July could be harder for you, and I want you to know that you matter to me – that can be a really beautiful gift for them, as well.

Definitely. Thank you for sharing that. So for our listeners who are personally going through loss, what tips do you have for them?

I would say that if you haven’t already experienced it, it can feel shocking that people’s reactions, in my experience, fall into really three main categories. One is where somebody shows up in a very meaningful way that feels like they’re present, that feels like they’re listening and that they really are feeling the thing with you.

The other is, people are really uncomfortable with it, and in an effort to try to ease your suffering, will say something like, “At least ______.” “At least you have a healthy baby.” “At least you weren’t further along.” Whatever it is. I would encourage you to understand that although their intent is to not hurt you, that it’s okay to recognize that what they said hurt and felt invalidating, and it’s okay to grieve that somebody just did that to you.

The third thing that I’ve found is people don’t know what to say. They know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of the invalidating comments. They don’t want to do that, and they also are so afraid that whatever they say will inadvertently hurt you that they simply don’t acknowledge it at all. And what I would encourage you to recognize in that moment is that, again, their intent is to not hurt you, but their impact, that I have felt, is that they are putting the weight of their discomfort on you to pretend like your reality isn’t what it is. Understand that that is something to grieve. It is okay to grieve when somebody does that. It’s okay to acknowledge that was not their intent. And the thing that I’ve found the most shocking about those three different categories of people is that it does not matter how close or not close a relationship is to you. You will have people who fall into all three categories across the board. You will have complete strangers who you don’t know show up for you in the most meaningful way if they find out that’s what happened. You will have people who may be your best friend of a lifetime who say the invalidating thing, or a family member say nothing or not acknowledge it. And that to me was the most shocking. I kind of assumed that the closer to me, the more meaningful the response and the further away, the more invalidating, and that’s just not what I experienced.

So if you are grieving, I would just tell you that if that’s what you’re experiencing, you’re not alone. I’ve experienced it most. Most people I’ve talked to have experienced it as well, and your feeling of people’s lack of capacity to show up for you is valid. I hope you can also hold on to their intent, which is to not hurt you.

Having said that, I do want to acknowledge that there are malicious people. There are malicious people who may say something with intent to hurt you. That’s not what I mean. If there is somebody in your life who, knowing your loss, says something with intent to hurt you, they are not a safe person. If you’re experiencing that, I would strongly recommend you talk to your doula or a therapist and get some external help to make sense of what’s happening because unfortunately, there are people who do want to cause harm. I just want to acknowledge that it’s different than the first three that I mentioned.

That makes complete sense, and so true. So how can our listeners find your cards and connect with you personally, Christi?

My cards are all on my website, Written Hugs Designs. And all of my variations that I have on hand are listed there. I do have the loss of babies, loss of baby, baby boy, baby girl – those are all coming and will be up shortly, so check back in a couple of weeks. They are on order, so they are coming. And I’m also on Instagram and Facebook @writtenhugsdesigns. You can find me there!

Thank you so much, Christi! I know I’ll be ordering more of your cards myself.

Thank you, Kristin! I appreciate you inviting me on, and thank you so much for doing this really important work and helping people learn how to connect through loss in this way.

Thank you! I appreciate the work you’re doing!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Written Hugs

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Child loss with Christi Kmecik of Written Hugs Designs: Podcast Episode #252 Read More »

Breast Milk Sharing with Kelly Cox of Share the Drop: Podcast Episode #251

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Kelly Cox discuss milk sharing and her new platform called Share the Drop on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Kelly Cox today. Kelly is a registered prenatal yoga teacher, a birth doula, a former mental health therapist, and a breast cancer survivor. Her experience in working with pregnant and new mothers for 15-plus years led her to create Share the Drop.

Welcome, Kelly!

Thank you for having me! I’m so excited to talk!

Yes, I would love to hear more about your story! Obviously, you’ve worked in the prenatal and postnatal phase for quite some time, but to create an app and get into the tech space is a much different venture than working in this service business.

Absolutely. I am the least tech-savvy human you may ever meet. My friends laugh that I’m in this tech space, but I just had this idea, and I couldn’t stop thinking about it, so here I am.

I love it! It’s all about solving problems. So tell us a bit more about the informal breastmilk sharing concept and how you’re able to connect donors to families in need virtually.

Well, I operated a pre- and postnatal yoga studio here in Charlottesville, Virginia, for about ten years. We closed during COVID. And I was always working with prenatal clients and doula clients with kind of a more therapeutic hat on, of thinking about what they were going through, trials and tribulations of getting pregnant, staying pregnant, preparing for how everything in life was about to change, but really wanted to think more about mental health-wise, how were they doing?

And it wasn’t until I really started working with doula clients and started paying attention to how the moms were returning to the studio that it became very clear to me the stress and anxiety wrapped around how you feed your infants.

100%. Totally agree.

I think we spend so much time getting pregnant, and then we worry about how we’re going to get the baby out, and there’s very little prep for what actually happens after.

Yeah, and we went through a formula shortage, so people who needed to supplement or were unable to breastfeed were struggling and having to order European formula. This obviously was all during that time of your big idea to create this platform.

Yes. So I was constantly at the studio being bombarded with women who said, hey, I have so much milk. I don’t know what to do with it. And then other women were just scrambling and saying I either can’t produce enough, I have to go back to work, I have a medical issue, and how do I get breastmilk? And so for years and years, I sent people to Facebook groups, and always they came back with the same response, that it’s so clunky. It takes time. Once you get into a group and get accepted, it was all forum-based posts, so someone might post at 6:00 in the morning, you have 100 ounces to give, and then someone else is posting right on top of that. And so they just said as new moms, we don’t have the time to do this. So I just was personally introducing women in town.

Beautiful.

This happened for years and years at the studio, and I always thought, there should be another way. It’s a long story, but I actually came up with this idea because one night I was emailing two women. One had milk to give; one needed milk. And I knew they lived a couple miles away, so I was introducing them via email, and my phone went off with a notification from Bumble saying, oh, I had a match. And it was like this life-changing moment. I was thinking, oh, my gosh. If I can go onto an app and create my ideal mate and then the algorithm works like it does and matches me with this perfect mate ten miles away, I thought, okay, this has to happen. So it just sat in my head, and I was really busy. I had a studio and I was a doula and I was doing all these things. And so when we closed during COVID, the voice wouldn’t stop. I was like, I have to do this. And so because the process is so clunky on these forum-based groups, I really wanted it to be in real time. So if you go onto Share the Drop, either a donor or a recipient just goes on and creates an account, and then we use zip codes. That’s one of the main things you put into the account because my idea is not find a donor two states away, have them pack up the milk, pay for shipping, have to wait for it. Let’s not only meet someone in your own community who might have extra milk but also meet your neighbors. We used to raise babies together in community with aunties and grannies and sisters, and that just doesn’t happen as much anymore. The biggest thing that happened after a decade of owning the studio was – like, prenatal yoga is great. Postnatal yoga is great. I can do that kind of work in my sleep. But it was really the moms who would meet on their mats, newly pregnant or new to motherhood, and then they would keep coming back and sitting next to each other, and then I would see them having coffee after. This community I live in is not that big, so now I see them three kids later. They’re still hanging out with the same moms that they met in a yoga class. And I realize it’s the community aspect that parents really, really need and can benefit from.

100%. And certainly not every community has a milk bank. We have one about an hour away from Grand Rapids, but there are so many restrictions. It’s basically NICU babies and the most need. So not everyone qualifies. And then there are restrictions as far as donating, so as you mentioned, there are all of these Facebook groups, and before I found your app, in researching for our new book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, I really only was referring to either the milk bank or some of those Facebook groups to our doula clients.

Yes. I think there’s 33 milk banks in the country. So it’s rare that someone is going to live very close. First of all, the process to get approved for those formal milk banks can take 30 to 45 days, and then like you said, not everyone can donate. And so my idea of peer to peer milk sharing is really based on a lot of what Eats On Feets has been doing for a lot of years. I believe that if there’s a woman who has excess production and more than her baby could ever consume and that baby is gaining weight and meeting developmental milestones, that would be the perfect option for people who can’t produce breast milk, can’t find formula on the shelves, can’t afford formula. I just think that this whole conversation around breast is best, fed is best, is causing a lot of anxiety and feelings of inadequacy if you can’t produce enough. And there are people in your community who have excess, and if you do this safely – we talk a lot about dating your donor. It’s the exact same questions you would ask if you were on a dating site. What is your lifestyle? We have filters on there for do you drink caffeine, do you drink alcohol, do you take prescription medication. Are you allergic to anything? We want to know what’s in the milk. And then it’s all about recipients making good choices for themselves.

As a doula, I’m not of the mindset that there’s only one way to have a baby. I always tell my clients, this is your birth, your body. Do all the research you can, and then you can make the best informed decisions on what you want to do during birth. And I think it should be the same thing if you’re going to use someone’s milk.

Yes. So it’s basically a trust. You’re having people fill out the forms, but you’re not requiring blood work, for example. They’re just listing if they take medication or if they’re drinking coffee and so on?

Yes. And then we do ask donors when they’re onboarding – we say, are you willing to share any recent medical lab work with a recipient if asked? Clearly, we’re not uploading that to the app because of HIPAA, but if they would, we put a little medical icon on their badge, so that’s one more safety feature that recipients know, hey, this woman is willing to share her recent lab work, which is great.

That is. That’s a big relief for some families who want that information.

Absolutely. The part about using zip codes is not only can you meet your neighbors, but you can vet. You can say, oh, Kristin, did you use a doula? Who’s your pediatrician? To get to know who you’re talking to, but then to say, do we have any friends in common? And then vet them that way. We talk about meeting in a safe place, meet during the day, when it’s light out. Meet in a public place. I have a neonatologist on my board of advisors, and he said in the very beginning, the questions you should ask someone before you take their milk are the same questions you should ask someone before you sleep with them for the first time.

Yeah, makes sense!

It’s totally the exact same thing. I get a lot of feedback of, oh, this is gross; why would I drink someone else’s milk? And I just kind of sit back and say, well, we drink cow milk and we drink sheep milk. It is the perfect food. If you can breastfeed, fantastic. If you’re an exclusive pumper, great. If you find a formula that works, great. I don’t think there should be any shame no matter how you feed. And I think informal milk sharing should be in the conversation.

I agree. And it’s also, I have found in working as a doula, that some of our families experience loss and want to donate milk in that way. Do you have stories of, as a way of grieving, where families are longing to share breast milk to help other families in need?

Yes. Actually, I had a client at my yoga studio, and it was after her loss that I really started to think more about this app. She was pregnant with her second. At 38 weeks, she delivered a baby still. And it was very important to her that she honor that life, and so I helped connect her to a local woman who was pregnant with her fourth baby. Just diagnosed with breast cancer and knew she had to have a mastectomy right after delivery. So that woman, the grieving mother, pumped for six months and delivered it to this other mother in need, and then the rest, gave to our milk bank her in Norfolk, Virginia. This woman is so sweet. I see her all the time, and we always talk about what a healing process that was for her.

It really can be. That’s beautiful to have that story as part of the journey in starting Share the Drop and that it can certainly, with grieving, benefit so many other families and is a way to give back in such a personal way.

Yes. I have users who have reached out and said, you know, my first baby was in the NICU. We received donor milk. It made such a difference, and that’s why I want to give my excess now.

I love it.

I remember in the beginning of this, looking for investors and talking to some people, and I was in a room with a group of men, and one of them said, why wouldn’t you pay donors for milk? And why would someone just do this out of the goodness of their heart? And I couldn’t think of anything to say other than that women are amazing. We’re the healers. We’re the ones who are going to save the world. So I don’t see where the question is.

Right. But I’m sure that as an investor, they’re looking at the potential income that paying for the milk could help grow your business, certainly, and help grow their investment in your business.

They did invest in me. And they’ve been fantastic cheerleaders. One of the biggest ways we keep this safe is we do not pay donors for milk. I understand the time and effort that goes into pumping and storing and donating. However, I think when you open the door to monetizing a human liquid, you risk opening the doors for fraudulent behavior. You can water down anything, sell it as milk, and this is when babies get sick. So the app is free for anyone to create an account. Donors always use it for free. Recipients create an account for free, and then you can see who’s in your feed, and you never have to pay. There’s a $9.99 a month subscription fee. You never have to pay that until you find someone you want to message, and then that’s unlimited. I waive that fee if they’re WIC or SNAP eligible. I want no barriers to entrance whatsoever. And then I also have a giving program where anyone can go onto the website and purchase a subscription to give out. And I have had some people go on there and just say, hey, I got donor milk years ago. I’d like to just feed it forward. I just want it to be accessible.

As far as apps, it would be on the Google Play store? How else can our listeners find Share the Drop?

We are on the Google Play store. We are not on Apple. I spent months and months rewriting code, trying to resubmit. They have finally come back and said that this is not a concept the Apple store condones. There is an app on their platform that does exactly this; however, they do pay donors for milk. So at that point, I was not interested in fighting with Apple, and so I pivoted, and I made a web app. So at our website, Share the Drop, you can create an account right there.

For me, running a business, this means I don’t have to give Apple 30% of my proceeds. But users can use it on a computer. You don’t have to have a smartphone. You can use it on a computer at the library. It actually makes me more inclusive. It did sting a little bit not to be on the app store. You think you’re going to build this app and of course it’s in all the big stores, and the more I pulled away from it, I realized, I own the web app. It works just as fine. It works just as savvy. You can get push notifications. And so yes, it is on Google Play, but anyone else can just go directly to the website and create an account.

Yes, and I agree with you that it’s so much more accessible. Not everyone has a mobile phone that has data, internet, and so on. As you mentioned, being able to go to the library and log in is very helpful.

So what’s next for Share the Drop?

It’s built. It’s running well. My biggest hurdle right now is just knowledge that it’s out there. So that’s why I reach out to everyone to tell them about this. I think if it’s an option, even if families need it in the very beginning until their milk supply comes in, it could be a short term option. It could be a long term option. But I really just need folks to know that it’s available. So if you are on Facebook groups sharing and you’re finding that that’s cumbersome and takes too much time, go create an account. It’s free to create an account and to look, so it’s really just spreading the word, which is a huge undertaking. I’ve been working in my community for 15-plus years marketing a studio and marketing my doula services, but I’ve never had to take it to this national level. And so yeah, just spreading the word as far and wide as we can.

I love it. So Kelly, what kind of insight do you have as far as the states that you’re in and cities? Where are you most located? Would it be in your home state, or what are you finding as far as data?

Yeah, so most of our users are from the central Virginia area where I am, so Richland, DC. We have quite a few users in DC. I’ve been able to build some great social media partnerships. Doula agencies in Boston and Chicago and Atlanta, so those are our top markets. However, we’re available nationwide, so I’ve just been asking users – I have users email me and say, hey, I’m done donating. Can you help me create my account? And I’m always like, absolutely, but tell your neighbors who are having babies. Tell anyone you know with excess. Really spreading the word like that. I mean, advertising is one thing, but when you deal with moms, you quickly realize that moms just talk about everything all day long.

They sure do, yes.

What they’re eating, what they’re drinking, what they’re buying, what their babies are doing, and so trying to, little by little, build this little army of moms who will continue to spread the word.

That’s what it’s all about. And then as you know, being a fellow doula, part of our role is to give our clients trusted resources and recommendations, just like your app. And that is, again, one of the most common needs for families is milk sharing, where to donate. And so you’re solving so many problems and still keeping it local and not having to deal with shipping out of state. As you mentioned before, even having relationships or seeing the person that you’re donating to can make a big impact.

Yes, absolutely. I really believe that what we’re missing out most in our current world and our society is community. We’re a lot more transient. If you can just meet your neighbors, talk to them more, no matter what stage of life you’re in, and be active in your community. Understand who the helpers are. I think we can solve a lot of what’s plaguing families right now. Especially coming out of COVID. I realize it’s been a while, but it still feels like we’re in it in some ways. It was the communities and the neighbor partnerships that really, I think, solidified families and took care of them during that time.

Agreed. Yeah, it does feel like things have not fully gone back to pre-pandemic times, and there’s still more isolation. You feel like there is less community, and a lot of businesses that did support prenatal and postnatal moms had to close during the pandemic. Some are opening back up, but there is that missing link since the pandemic.

Yeah, and I see a lot of prenatal offerings coming back, but I don’t see as much as postnatal as I think there should be. You know, I always tell yoga clients and doula clients while they’re pregnant, do your research about pregnancy and labor, but really, really focus on breastfeeding. Take a breastfeeding class if you can. Go sit in on a Le Leche League meeting. Have extending family members taken an online breastfeeding class so that they can understand more and be supportive. If we put more steady time into what’s really going to happen that first year, I think new moms would fare a lot better.

Agreed. So Kelly, for our listeners who are pre-conception or early in pregnancy, what are the benefits of donating breastmilk? The second part of that question is, what are the benefits of receiving donated breastmilk?

Every woman I have ever met with excess breastmilk understands how important it is and what a vital nutrient it is. I have never had anyone say, hey, can you help me sell this? They’re always like, this has done so well for my child. I can’t believe I’m making so much. Can you help me find someone? I mean, I think any woman helping another woman – that’s the biggest benefit. Years ago, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I had a lot of women come to me, other survivors, saying how can I get milk, but a lot of other women saying, hey, I understand. This has opened my eyes to the fact that, of course, a breast cancer survivor, if she had a mastectomy, couldn’t feed. Can you please help me find a survivor? Absolutely. The benefits of donating are really altruistic. Helping your neighbor. I’m a big fan of karma. I think everything comes back. Any time I’ve been able to help someone, it’s made me feel better about my life.

For a recipient, if you just are having trouble feeding for any reason but you believe that breastmilk is the best option for your infant and you don’t want formula or you can’t find formula – it’s out there and it’s safe. It’s the perfect food. It has the perfect blend of carbohydrates, proteins, fats. We have huge companies trying to replicate breastmilk because they know how good it is. So if you choose it and that’s what you want for your infant, great. Here’s an option to get it. I do have people asking about safety. We talk about safety measures and how to meet your donor and all these questions to ask, but if you’re really worried, you can buy testing strips for alcohol. My friend Dr. Trill over at Free to Feed has just come out with a new testing strip that will actually test for certain things. If you know your baby has some allergens, it can test milk that you get to see if there’s any gluten in the milk or dairy.

And then last but not least, you can do home pasteurization, which is very simple. It’s a very vital food that you can get from a neighbor. But what if you can’t find your formula? We just had another formula recall, I think, three weeks ago. Some formulas have been difficult to find. And families are struggling financially, so you think about a $9.99 a month fee, as our admin fee. It’s so much cheaper than buying formula.

It is, no doubt.

And if there’s excess out there, I think it should go to infants in need and take that financial piece out of it. We talk about being commerce free. I do tell users, if you find a trusted donor and they’re giving you milk on a regular basis, buy them new storage bags. Replenish that, so that they’re not spending their own money on that. But I think we can set the standard for helping your neighbor a lot more than we do.

We can. Totally agree. So any final tips for our listeners, Kelly?

Just go onto our website. You can read about us. Anyone, anytime, can email me. It’s kelly@sharethedrop.com. Ask me any questions. Give me feedback. I’ve got pretty thick skin. Realize that we don’t have huge users in every city, and so it might be a while before you find people in your community, but you can create an account and then keep signing on and seeing what’s there. But just talk to people about their experiences. Did you ever donate milk? Have you ever received milk? Listen to what that experience was like.

Agreed, yes. It certainly helps to have personal experience. Ask your friends. Having your personal testimonials and stories that you shared today is also helpful. If you just venture on a site and don’t have the background information that you shared, it can be a little overwhelming and scary.

Yes, absolutely. It’s all about the more you know. So read, ask questions. I’m a big fan of any sort of informational support groups, whether that’s about getting pregnant, delivery, the first three months. Go into your community and see who else is talking about these things because the knowledge will help in every aspect of parenting.

Agreed. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story, Kelly. I so appreciate the work you’re doing.

Thank you so much! Thanks for having me on today.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Share the Drop

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Breast Milk Sharing with Kelly Cox of Share the Drop: Podcast Episode #251 Read More »

Health Tips for New and Seasoned Moms with Dr. Lora Grasso: Podcast Episode #250

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Dr. Lora Grasso discusses small changes that can help you maintain your health after having a baby in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas. Dr. Grasso is the founder of APEX Coaching.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with my friend, Dr. Lora Grasso. She has an extensive background in health and education, and our topic today is focused on health as a new mom and small changes that can be made to stay on top of your health at such a challenging time, whether this is your first baby or your fifth. Welcome, Dr. Lora Grasso!

Hi! It’s so nice to be here, Kristin! Thanks for having me!

Yes! I’m excited to get into it! And again, your background is so extensive. I figured it’d be better for you to really walk us through your journey in health and education and how it led you to focusing on supporting new moms with health coaching.

Sure thing. So I started off – I was always in health. My entire professional career, I was in health and education. And I started off with getting my bachelor’s degree in health and physical education. I taught in public education for a little over a decade until I had my wonderful twins, who are now eight years old. In the process, I also got my master’s degree in exercise science, and I, of course, tend to take on the world, and I worked on my doctoral degree right as I was having my newborn twins.

That really was a wakeup call to this whole mothering thing and being able to do it all. Then when I went back into the workforce, I went into virtual education. I could be home with my kids and be there for them and have my own thing in education. I quickly worked my way up to assistant director at that company. I really loved it. And then I just went on to find an opportunity teaching at an elementary school of my children, and that just did not work out for me. It was not for me. The schedule was tough with being basically a single mom at that point.

And if a kid is sick, it’s not like you can call off work. So much to navigate. Although the thought, obviously, was good, to be in their own school.

I always tossed around the idea of coaching because I’ve been trained as a personal trainer. I have a certification in personal training and a health coach certification, both of those since around 2001 to 2004. I’ve trained all age groups, all capacities, all skill levels. I really love that. I’ve always been involved in the exercise arena. I’ve also competed in figure competitions, which is another thing a lot of people don’t know about me, but it’s a branch of body building. That taught me a lot about nutrition, really. That gave me a lot of my background in that. And I said, why not now? I always wanted to do health coaching. So why not now, and I left that job and decided to go out on my own and start my own health coaching because I knew mothers needed it. I know we always put ourselves last. I know we need all the help we can get, and just that support, too, of each other. We’re all going through this. We’re there to help each other. What can I do to make that whole process easier and simpler and just make your everyday life better and not let your health go by the wayside because you’re raising little ones?

Exactly. And your business, APEX Coaching with Lora, is so focused on moms and women, based on your own personal experience, so I would love to get into some tips for our listeners and how to, again, make some actionable changes, what it might look like to work with a coach like yourself. You’re not the typical health coach, with such an extensive background. So I’d love to hear more about how you can be helpful and what moms can do.

Right. Well, one of the biggest things here is there’s no one size fits all, and there’s no fast fix. We all want that. We all want that instant gratification. Sure, it feels great, but it’s not going to stick with you for life. So if you cannot look at a health change or a plan and say that you cannot stick with this for your lifetime, or a very long time, then it’s not the plan for you. And everyone is different. The programs that I build are very comprehensive. You can’t just look at what you eat and how you move. There’s much more to it than that. Your daily behaviors, handling your everyday stress, your habits. Sleep is a huge one, and I’ll talk about that more with new mothers because that impacts every aspect of your health: mental, physical, social.

Absolutely. That is what we stress as postpartum doulas and sleep consultants. It can affect so much more than mental health. I mean, it compounds. So I love that you focus on that in your plans, as well.

Yes. And there are lots of little tricks you can do. That’s my philosophy, too, that if you want to sustain change, if you want something you can stick with, it can’t be this huge all-encompassing, overwhelming change, like a lot of these fads are. It has to be small, sustainable ones. So what I do is I look at what you like, what would stick with your schedule, how can it fit with your life, not making your life fit to it, but how can it fit in your life. So sleep, for example. We know that first year, we try as hard as we can, but we’re not going to get as much sleep as we want. It’s very baby-focused, that first year, at least. And we do the best to get it in where we can. But there are other tricks, too, like using light is very important for maintaining your circadian rhythms and getting more quality sleep, even if you’re not getting quantity. There’s a lot that you can do to help with quality. Like that first sunlight and sunset – there’s a lower angle light that comes in. If you get that early light and the evening light, it helps to set your rhythms, which help you get better quality sleep. When you sleep, ensuring that it’s cold, it’s dark, it’s quiet. Those are other things. Granted, you could have a crying baby. We all know that that’s going to happen. We all know it’s not realistic to think we’re going to have the perfect sleeping environment. But when you do get sleep, doing that, if you need to take a midday nap, have blackout curtains. If you can, have someone else watch the baby so you can be in a quiet, dark, cooler place. That’s going to make you feel better.

I always say don’t make any big decisions when you’re sleep deprived because it affects you so drastically. I mean, I’ve been there. I know how it feels. I know how those days can seem way worse when you don’t have that sleep.

Especially with twins. That’s a whole different experience, navigating feeding two, and different sleep schedules, trying to get them on the same page as far as all of their activities throughout the day and night. I give you a lot of credit!

Absolutely. But any new mother – like you said, after the fifth child, even though you have the experience, it’s never a breeze, and every child is different. We know there’s some children who are going to be more colicky and more difficult to handle. Think about what works with them, too. You want them on as much of a schedule as you can. Right? You want to do that for yourself, too. Going back to circadian rhythms and trying to get quality sleep – things you do throughout the day, like when you eat, when you move, any type of movement. It doesn’t have to be an extreme, regimented exercise routine. Just walking. Doing that at consistent times every day helps set that rhythm as well.

Yes. I love that. So Lora, as far as your typical coaching client, are their concerns more about getting back to their old size they had before having kids, or is it more in getting energy? What are the top concerns? Is it weight or having a better diet or energy?

I think the biggest ones are fatigue and your pre-baby body, which really, we have to learn to love and accept who we are after children because there’s just no way that you’re going to be exactly what you are and who were before you had kids. We think about physically, we’re not the same. My feet grew! That’s one thing. I have extra skin. Those are things that are just there. But you’re also – you are different inside. You know how life-changing having a child is, and we have to learn to accept that. We have to learn to accept the way our bodies are. But with that said, there are definitely things that we can do to make us feel more confident and stronger and gain more energy because the most common complaint you hear about motherhood is I’m tired. I’m just tired. That creates that cycle, too, because you’re too tired to feel like you can exercise, but in the end, exercising is going to give you energy. So it’s hard to get past that, and the biggest thing is building habits. There’s a great book by James Clear called Atomic Habits. I highly recommend a read for anyone out there.

I love that book, as well.

So good! One of the examples I like to explain that he gives in the book is that when he’s trying to get someone to go to the gym, and he said, just go every day for five minutes. You probably think, what’s that going to do for me? What you’re doing in the beginning is strictly setting the habit. Get into the habit and change the identity and everything else is going to follow. Once you start doing that, you’re like, I am the person who exercises regularly. And you start to do it more. So the idea is don’t bite off more than you can chew. Even something as simple as, you want to meditate every day. Just start by getting your mat out everyday and then go from there. Especially as mothers with very limited time – and I always take that into account when I’m working with clients – we need to know what our schedule is, what’s realistic. If you are absolutely not a morning person, morning workouts are not going to be for you. You’re setting yourself up for failure if you’re like, every day I’m going to get up at 4:00 a.m. and I’m going to exercise. You just have to do what’s realistic and what’s going to work for you, and you can always go up from there. You can always take more baby steps – since we’re talking about babies, right? It’s about being realistic and taking those small steps that you can sustain, that you can stick with.

I love it. And how do you factor in breastfeeding or pumping moms as far as their goals and their diet and ability to have the time to even work out when you’re feeding a lot more frequently than using formula?

Well, a couple of things with that. I think a lot of us get stuck in what it means to work out or exercise, and it doesn’t have to be this, going to the gym, doing this many sets and reps, or doing this YouTube workout. Really, put it in your mind as movement, especially that first year. Get out and walk your baby. Take them on a daily walk. Move more. When you’re parking somewhere, parking further away. Just getting strictly more movement in. And one thing, a misnomer I’d like to clear up with breastfeeding: you do need more calories, right? You need 350 to 500 more calories. But you also need to keep in mind what that is because I think a lot of people think – and that’s when their weight can get carried away – that they need to eat a lot more to sustain this. But in reality, up to 500 calories is three cups of popcorn. It’s two slices of cheese on toast. It’s one and a half bagels with cream cheese. It’s really, when you think about it, not that much. So being careful with that, and I’m not a big proponent of calorie counting. I do it in the beginning with a lot of my clients just to see kind of where we are, and it’s usually a wakeup call to see, oh, I didn’t realize it was that much. But again, do you want to count calories for the rest of your life?

Obviously not!

Right! So realistically, we just need to do an assessment at first, and then realize what we can sustain and what makes sense as far as the amount to make up for what we’re doing, whether that’s breastfeeding, whether that’s working out, whether that’s training for something. I think people get a little carried away, and people do this, too, when they’re pregnant with cravings. Like, I need to eat so much more for the baby. I need to eat so much more. You definitely don’t want to deprive your baby, but you also don’t want to be misled on what you’re intaking. It’s setting yourself up for something that’s hard to rebound from.

That makes perfect sense. And hydration, obviously, is key, especially if you are pumping or breastfeeding and having water throughout the day is so important.

Absolutely. Hydration is huge. There’s actually a link between your amount of sleep and hydration, so especially when you’re not sleeping as much, you need to drink even more. It will be more trips to the bathroom, but very important as far as your health.

Exactly. Thank you for that! What are your other tips for small changes that mom can make in that first year?

I think a support system is huge, as well, if you can have accountability and support with other moms. There’s great Facebook groups. I have a Facebook group I started. I’m going to put it out there – anyone is welcome to join. It’s called Momentum Wellness Lounge. There’s support in there. There’s tips in there. I think another thing to keep in mind with those small things is your mental health. Having time for you – and everyone is like, I don’t have time! It comes down to priorities. You have to make time for you, and I’m not saying 20 minutes, even. I’m saying 5 minutes. Everyone can take 5 minutes out of their day to step away, to read for 5 minutes. Just lay there and do nothing for 5 minutes. Once again, it’s the little things, and that’s something that you can look forward to everyday, as well, when you’re in the chaotic realm of motherhood. That’s so important with your mental health. Writing things out, too, getting things off your mind and onto paper helps a lot of people.

100% agree. Yeah, we talk about writing out the birth story and doing some journaling and meditating. Taking that time, and I know there’s always that temptation, if baby is sleeping, to get on social media or answer some emails, but taking, as you mentioned, 5 or 10 minutes for yourself can change your entire day.

Yes, and I also say with social media, just be very careful. I mean, it’s the perfect storm for depression, right, because you’re sleep deprived, which every single mental illness is linked to sleep in some way. So you’re already sleep deprived. Your world is around this baby. You have this whole new identity that you’re still trying to learn about yourself. And then you’re going on social media, where people are depicting their best lives. People are going on vacations. People are having a blast. So it can be great for support – like go to some of those mom groups and vent or get advice – but also just be careful and just know everyone is putting out their best selves. There’s a lot of people on there who are dealing with the same stuff that you are.

Right, and I do like that there’s more vulnerability now on social media, and people are showing the messy house or talking about mental health struggles. But there’s still so much of that Pinterest perfect and Instagram lifestyle photos that are hard to keep up with. I really like your tips of finding a community, like your community where you have moms going through the same things at the same time, supporting each other.

Yes. Something that I will admit I struggle with, too, is asking for help. Ask for help. Someone – I think it was Brene Brown – brought this up in one of her books, about think about the other side of the help offer. Like, I know when someone asks me, I love to help. I love when people reach out to me and ask for help, so think about that next time that you’re asking. Typically, especially the people who care about you and are around you would want to help you. It’s hard for us.

And we’re not mind readers. We often don’t know how to help, so it’s good to have that clear direction.

Yes, even for those five minutes to step away, I think anyone would love to help a new mother for five minutes.

Absolutely. So Lora, what does it look like to work with you if our listeners are interested in moving forward with a consultation? Can you walk us through that?

Yes, I offer free consultations, and that’s just us getting to know each other and making sure that we’re a right fit for each other. From there, we’re going to talk about everything. I mean, in order for it to be personalized, I need to really know what you like, what you don’t like, what you’re doing, what you’d like to do, your goals, your habits, your behaviors, where you see yourself in five years. We go through a pretty in-depth analysis of where you are and where you’d like to be. And from there, you’re going to get a very personalized plan. We try to do it – again, I mean, that’s a lot of factors that I take into account. So we pick out the big ones first, which usually means nailing down the sleep. And I’ll tell you, I’ve had clients and I’ve read in several pieces of literature and articles too about people solely changing their sleep and seeing all these changes from it before even doing nutrition and exercise. So that sleep is going to be a big factor for new moms, especially. But I’ll do it in a way that you’re not overwhelmed because it’s a lot of factors, and it will be very personalized to you. There will be constant feedback, constant communication, as far as, “Lora, I don’t really like this part or I’m not doing well with that. What can we change?” And then it will be consistent check-ins. Some of it, depending on the needs of the client, will be that I will assess and say when we need a check-in, but sometimes client preference, too, as far as what works best for them. It’s really a matter of getting to know the client, them getting to know me and my style, and figuring out how we can reach those goals together.

Love it. What is the average length of time that a client works with you? Is it a year? Three months? Or is it different for everyone based on their needs?

Right. It’s a little different. There’s three months, six months, and one year programs that we start with, and then people will renew, or some people will feel like, I’m good. I feel like I’m good where I am right now. And some of those people come back, too. I always say I’m here. This is up to you, what you feel that you need. I’m going to give my feedback on where I feel that you are and where you need to be, as well, as your support and your coach. But we have many ways to meet your needs.

Beautiful. Any final tips that we didn’t chat about, Lora?

Something I always say is think of what you would tell your best friend when you’re giving advice – because we’re so hard on ourselves, you know, just as being a mother and trying to juggle it all. Now that you have kids, think of what you would tell them. Think of how you would tell them to make sure they’re taking care of themselves. Now we’re always being the model for them. They have such unconditional love. They’re going to love you no matter what, but they’re watching what you do. So if you’re not taking care of yourself, what are you showing them?

So true. Excellent advice. How can our listeners find you, Lora?

My Instagram is @lorae5. It’s a mesh of personal and some professional tips on there, as well, but it’s important for people to know me as a mother, too. That’s why I do that. I have my website. And then the Momentum Wellness Lounge, on Facebook, as well. Just send a message that you want to join, and I’ll approve you and bring you in!

Excellent! Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us! Appreciate you, Lora!

I appreciate you! Thank you! I’m rooting for all you new moms out there!

IMPORTANT LINKS

APEX Coaching

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Health Tips for New and Seasoned Moms with Dr. Lora Grasso: Podcast Episode #250 Read More »

Centennial Sound - Ask the Doulas Podcast

Our Journey to Creating an Audiobook for Supported: Podcast Episode #249

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

In the latest episode of Ask the Doulas, Kristin Revere discusses the launch of the Audiobook for Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. Alyssa Veneklase and Kristin Revere recorded the audiobook at a local recording studio called Centennial Sound and had a lot of fun with the process. You can now order Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby on Audible, iTunes, and Amazon.

Please leave a review on our podcast if you enjoyed this episode, so we can reach more listeners like you!

Subscribe to our newsletter, check out Kristin’s birth and baby book, and see more about our Doula services & online courses at our website!

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to share our latest book news. As you know, Supported launched on Mother’s Day in paperback, hardcover, as well as the Kindle version, on Amazon and select retailers, including EcoBuns Baby & Co, and now we are releasing an audiobook! That will be available on Audible and Amazon as well as iTunes, if you consume books the way I do in the audio format.

Alyssa and I recorded the book ourselves in a local studio. Ben Zito from Centennial Sound was our engineer and guide through this process, and it was so much fun! I hope you choose our book if you’re an Audible member or consume books on iTunes or Amazon. We’ve got a preview of our introduction that we will share with you in today’s episode. Check it out!

Are you ready for one of your most life-changing experiences? We compare it to graduating from college, preparing for a promotion, or planning a wedding. Big life changes deserve attention.

Our book, Supported, is your one-stop shop for everything you need to know about becoming a mother. It’s created by two seasoned doulas with more than 19 years of combined experience who have helped more than 1,000 clients during pregnancy, birth, and early parenting.

Focus on you and what you need as a new mother. Make sure you eat. Make sure you’re sleeping enough. Trust your instincts, and ask for help.

Believe in yourself, and know that you’re going to be awesome at this parenting gig. No matter who you are or where you live, how you choose to birth, or if this is your first or fifth, you have options. You have choices. Knowledge is power.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Our Journey to Creating an Audiobook for Supported: Podcast Episode #249 Read More »

Spirituality and Doula work with Sabia Wade: Podcast Episode #248

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Sabia Wade discuss her book “Birthing Liberation” and discuss spirituality and doula work. Sabia is the CEO of Birthing Advocacy Trainings and a speaker, mentor, and author.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to bring back my friend Sabia Wade to Ask the Doulas. Sabia is the CEO of Birthing Advocacy Doula Training. She is an author. She’s a speaker. She is a thought leader in, I feel, so many different spaces, but in my lens of doula work, she is certainly my go-to. Sabia is also known as the Black Doula. Welcome, Sabia!

I’m glad to be here! I’m glad that we finally have some time to sit down and talk about some things.

Yes! You and I were both presenters at DoulaCon in Colorado, and your keynote was just receiving so many rave reviews, and of course, you had your book with you, which is all based on spirituality and doula work, and unfortunately, I was speaking at the same time, so I missed hearing it! But I got to get a photo and say hi before you left the conference, so that was amazing. I would love to dive into the topic of spirituality and doula work and hear more about your journey as an author and how you’ve been able to expand your message using books as a platform.

For sure. Where would you like to get started? I love this conversation, the topic layout so far. I’ll say this, too, as a note. I think sometimes when you are specifically a doula of color, sometimes people get caught up in only one topic that they want to talk to you about, and you’re like, I’m also multifaceted. So I really love when I’m in a space where we can really talk about these topics and not just trauma.

Exactly. And obviously, Black maternal health is a major concern. We are in Black Maternal Health Week, currently. This podcast will be coming out after, but I’m sure a lot of your speaking and podcast guesting is so focused because you are a major thought leader in this space. But I’m open to wherever you want to take the conversation, certainly. And I feel the same way, that doula work, both birth and postpartum, is very spiritual. It’s hard to explain the importance of the work unless you actually do it. Like when I tell friends about how it is such an honor to be in this space and how I need to be open and this moment can’t be duplicated, even if my client has five kids, so I need to be this open vessel as a doula and really hold space for them.

For sure. 1000% agree, and I think a part of this work and the value of a doula, too – I think sometimes we undervalue ourselves and the role we play because there’s so much conversation about how we’re not medical providers. We can’t act as a midwife. We can’t do those things. Those roles are very much important, for sure. And I think there’s something so special about the role we do hold as a doula because there’s something about it that is very holistic and, in a way, spiritual. And not in a sense of religious. Obviously, I’ve had clients that have been a different religion, whatever it looks like, but more so in the sense of spiritual as far as, like, wholeness. I think that we all are people and we all have these experiences and we all have our fears; we all have our trauma, our this, our that. I feel like as a doula we hold that and say to the person, it’s okay that you are existing in all of this. Something about that is healing as well as just spiritual in nature.

Yes. And it’s a rite of passage, so again, whether it’s baby one or baby six, it is still this major life occurrence that, in many cultures, is treated with reverence and celebrated, and it’s not just a medical occurrence.

Exactly. And I think that when you’re standing there too – I think my gift, as I’ve found myself as a person and as a doula, because there’s a difference, I think – the more that we find ourselves and the more that we work on ourselves, the more that we do our personal work, the better we show up as doulas, and the better we understand how our doula approach works. Because every doula is different, right? What we focus on or what’s important to us or our approach, the way that we talk, the services that we provide – it’s just different. And I think the more I worked on myself, understanding who I am, the more I’ve been able to show up for my clients in a way that is very transparent and also in a way that has more boundaries, even for my students. I think a lot of times in this work enmeshment is something that can happen so quickly. It’s so easy to feel like me and this person are one and the same because you’ve had similar experiences. A lot of us come into this work because we’ve had a child, right, or because we’ve had some type of reproductive health experience that made us realize, oh, this system is not what it should be. So we come into it, and then there’s this enmeshment and also this level of looking for healing in the work, which I don’t think that is bad to find a healing experience within the work, but when we make that our whole main reason for being here, sometimes that can transfer for enmeshment in spaces that we don’t want that to actually be happen.

Yes, 1000% yes, Sabia. I feel like doulas get into the work either based on a positive experience in birth and postpartum or a negative, and like you said, trying to heal trauma, trying to live out a better experience. In one of my doula trainings, I learned that we are not accountable for our clients’ birth or postpartum experience, and it’s not – I’m there to hold space and to support without judgment, but my role is not to fight the system or reduce interventions or if they want an unmedicated birth, to help them achieve that. There’s so much out of our control and out of our clients’ control. So if I go in with that act of service and without trying to keep perfect stats and save the world, then I end up being able to support in a more holistic way.

For sure. And I think too, naturally for me, I am definitely an anxiety girly. In my anxiety, understanding that my anxiety comes from different spaces. It comes from myself being someone who’s been in the medical space. I just had a hysterectomy, but that’s three abdominal uterine surgeries later, right? And I think there’s a part of us when we get into this work – there’s a part of us that we understand there’s a need for this work, so that’s very clear. The other part is that this work can be very triggering, for lack of better words. It can be very intense, and I think in that, all of us have anxiety because we all have really seen things. It’s one thing to have anxiety over an idea. Like, oh, maybe birth doesn’t go right or the experience is not good, but when you’re a doula, you’re literally in that space with people seeing things not go right. You’re seeing things in real time not be the way or you’re seeing outcomes, and not necessarily – when I say outcomes I don’t mean necessarily death as an outcome, right? Like, we obviously don’t want that. But the outcomes that we see are people who are like, I feel unsettled. I feel unsafe. This birth or this procedure didn’t go the way that I wanted it to. I’m having a lot of feelings about whatever. We see that all the time, and honestly, I think all of us, in my mind, we all build up certain anxieties and certain stress and certain trauma, like secondary trauma, and then that sometimes comes off as, now I’m trying to control the outcome of every client that I work with.

Right, and we can’t do that.

We can’t! Sometimes I think in that not being able to do that, it sometimes looks like simply – and I think there’s two kinds of ways that it shows up. Sometimes it’s like I’m literally trying to educate you, and you’re active in education, and then we’re in the birth room and things are going chaotic, and I’m feeling like it’s my personal failure that it’s not going the right way, even though I’ve done everything I can do. And then there’s also the second part, which I think a lot of people don’t talk about often. When you have a client that you adore but they’re just not listening. They’re not listening, and you’re just kind of like, why are you not listening to me? And then I feel like, I want to control this. Listen to me. Listen to me. But we have to understand that people are on their own path and they do what they want to do and they do what they know how to do. In that instance, if they’re not listening when we’re in the birth room, we try to direct or give as much as we can, but again, the outcome is not in our control.

And that’s very freeing. When I was a new doula, I kept the stats. I felt like a failure. There was so much weight on my shoulders, and when I was able to release that, I was able to be a much more effective doula and hold the space that was needed without that anxiety that comes with helping your client to make what you feel is the best choice for them. But it’s their choice. It’s their birth.

And it’s like, how do we hold ourselves, right? Obviously, this work is about holding people, and that’s great, but also, like, how do we hold ourselves? How do we as doulas, as care providers, as birth workers of any sort, how do we fit a team that holds us? Because you really can’t – I wouldn’t suggest doing this work in this one-sided manner where, like, oh, I hold everyone. As a superhero personality type like me, that’s not it. At some point, the walls fall down because you’re like, but who was holding me?

Yeah. And that’s why we encourage therapy and support groups for our clients, but I feel like doulas and birth workers, birth keepers, need it just as much. I know if I experience secondary trauma or loss, I am talking to my therapist and also my team of doulas are certainly there as a resource and we’re able to help each other process situations that are challenging.

For sure. And I think, too, for me, I have realized, especially even beyond my – you know, you have your doula pals. And your doula pals, they’re going to understand what you’re going to. They understand the things, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, thank you, I don’t have to explain this. But I think one of the things that is important to do is kind of require the people in your life, your partners, your families, whoever your family includes – also require them to learn how to hold space, as well. Because sometimes as a doula, you’re like I can go to my doula friends, but what if they’re not around? Can your partner hold space for you? Not that they have to understand every piece of what happened, but I think that we have to also as doulas – and I think that’s a hard thing for doulas to require people to hold space for them because we are the space holders.

Exactly. It’s hard to ask for help, and especially for the helping personalities, they want to serve, and it’s hard for them to ask for a listening ear or a hug. I find that especially with the postpartum doulas on my team, so many of them serve and then get depleted and then get so burnt out that they need to take a break or might have health issues. It’s a matter of slowing down, finding some form of self-care that works for you, and just like with the advice we give our clients and the resources – take them ourselves!

For sure. And I think, too, when we say that, finding something that works for you – so currently, I’ve almost finished my training as a spiritual director. And basically, spiritual direction is – you could even call it the spiritual doula in some realms because it’s really like sitting with you in spirit. There’s no end goal. With coaching, let’s say you have a business coach. The end goal is, let’s say, increase revenue by 10% by the end of the year. But with spiritual direction, there is no goal. It’s more so for me to sit with you while you’re figuring out things or whatever that looks like for you.

It’s so beautiful.

And I love it. I’m definitely being more open about it. Spirituality – I’ve always practiced or I’ve always existed this way in my close circle, but I haven’t existed this way more publicly. But I think the reason why I love spiritual direction is that when I’m talking with my different clients – and some of them are doulas. A lot of them are doulas, to be honest. We talk about, like, okay, well, what does spirituality mean to you? And I think, one, we always have to go over the difference between religion versus spirituality. But for me, I’m always like, spirituality starts with yourself, right? And I think a lot of us, just traditionally, by the different traditions and religions, we talk about everything starting externally. You have to go to church to be spiritual. You have to do this to be spiritual. It’s always these external things. But I think spirituality for me, it starts with you. What do you put in your body? Not what do you put in your body like don’t eat sugar. More so, what nourishes you? What gives you energy? What life force are you putting into your body that helps you? Whether it’s drinking tea, whether it’s drinking water, and whether it’s drinking a glass of wine. It’s whatever is personalized to you. And then also thinking about – if we’re thinking about food, what energy? What people am I absorbing? What do my surroundings look like? A lot of times, that’s nature. If you go to my house, my house has 30 houseplants. And it’s not just because I love plants, although I do love plants. But when I look at my plants, if they’re in bad shape, I know that I’m not taking care of myself because part of my self-care for myself is keeping my plants in good shape. I think for doulas and care workers in general, if we were to have a better relationship with ourselves and maybe see ourselves the way we look at our clients, to see them as these sacred bodies – like this is a sacred situation. They are a vessel of light, of whatever. And we don’t look at ourselves the same way. I just want to do more work around that to change that because we need to see ourselves as those vessels, like vessels of light, the same way that we see our clients as those vessels.

That gave me chills. Very moving. No, I hadn’t thought of our work in that way.

I think about all these things. Like, we could be here for three hours. I know we’re not going to be here for three hours. To know me is to know that this is how I am, right? But I think I’m being more publicly out there with this part of myself.

Please do! We need more of this! But it’s hard to be vulnerable, especially as a thought leader, if you’re known in certain categories, to break into yet another. But I don’t feel like this is a topic that is talked about enough, especially when it comes to birth workers and those that care for newborns and the importance of the work where we don’t have the village that helps in the first 30 to 40 days, depending on the culture. Women are feeling very isolated. It is a time that the caregivers need to fill their own cups and put their own mask as, as you say.

Exactly. But what does that actually look like? And I find that in my personal experience, I do see people in different communities I’m a part of who aim to create spaces of care for birth workers, and we don’t show up. And I find it so interesting. Not saying that these topics aren’t important, but for example, when we’re talking about more of the harder, traumatic parts of being a birth worker, people show up in numbers. And I want that – and I want people to show up in spaces of care for themselves, right? To me, I find that to be so alarming because yes, we are going to talk about trauma and all that naturally in the birth world because especially the way that we do birth work, right, it’s about systems and people and all that. But I see people, and it’s like, oh, here’s this kind of event. Here’s this, here’s that. And they don’t show up. And I also have this feeling of like our work has become so trauma-centered that we’re forgetting about the joy and the thriving and the beauty and the care and the community aspects that will actually keep us going.

Right. And it’s so essential. If you don’t have that community of support – that’s why I feel like when I was a solo doula, it was so isolating. Even if I had my doula friends in the agency that I created, there is that sense of community, and we support each other and we do continuing education. In fact, a couple of years ago, you did a training for my entire doula team on really focusing on trauma and equity and just understanding a lot of the diversity, equity, inclusion, and how that relates to their work, both as birth doulas, as educators, as postpartum doulas. But I am very intrigued by talking with and having our doulas have a training with you on spirituality and how they can really get to that next level so we don’t have the burnout in our industry that we’re known for three years and then you’re done. I’ve been doing this work coming on 11 years, and I’m one of the rare ones in my community that have stuck with it.

Listen, it’s not easy, and I think, too, one of the things I hope for the doula world specifically is, obviously, that we do more care for ourselves and understanding what that looks like for ourselves. And understand that it’s going to look different. It looks different for everybody. What fills me may not fill you, and it’s okay to have those differences. What fills you might be a specific religion. That’s also fine, right? But I also hope that we are able to start healing our money trauma. That’s the second thing. I feel like people have this feeling of, if I’m giving to my community, it can’t be for any type of financial gift or financial return. Building a budget for some people or building or asking for a certain amount of money for their time – it doesn’t feel good. So I really hope that we can help people to move that. And I think the other thing that I would love to see is the expansion of doulas seeing themselves as – how do I say this? I guess what I’m trying to say is, there’s nothing wrong with, obviously, being a doula, being very happy in your practice, doing one on one clients, whatever. But I think there’s so many different types of business models that can exist for doulas. And I think a lot of us feel the weight of, like, we don’t have college degrees, some of us. Like I don’t have a college degree. Our work is not seen as this valuable thing, so people seem to limit themselves and what their business can look like. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, it can look like so much more because you have these natural talents, these natural gifts, and these ideas; how do we bring it to life? That’s something I would love to see more in the doula world.

Yes, absolutely. And women doing women’s work. I feel like a big project for me was trying to get doulas to be respected in the business community, so I joined the chamber and got on some policy committees and became a B Corp to try to get the respect that I was used to getting in the corporate and political world, and that was my own agenda, but I do feel like doulas tend to undervalue and undercharge, and that is one of the many reasons they leave the work.

Yeah. And then it’s like when we look at the world that we’re in, right, where there’s all this monetization of doula work, right, whether it’s looking like the Medicaid process – but yeah, I think when it comes to doulas, right now we’re in this very sensitive time where I know a few years ago, when I started being a doula, even in 2015, people were like, doula what? And even now, I still get that reaction to some degree, but I think there is more awareness of us, especially because of COVID, I think. With COVID, it was like, oh, we need doulas because we’re getting into the hospitals; we don’t know what’s going on. It was chaotic for all of us. So I think to a certain degree, it’s a blessing that we’re known more, right, because then we also see different opportunities. Here’s the thing. I feel like there’s benefits to Medicaid, and there’s not benefits to Medicaid, and then there’s benefits to, like, hospital programs, and there’s not benefits to hospital programs. But the major point that we’re at – we are something that people are seeing as valuable enough to want to recreate or want to collaborate with or want to partner with or want to reimburse. The social capital and relationship capital when your hospital says, we have a doula program, right? We’re not going to say if that doula program may be good or not good, but there’s also health insurance plans who are like, we want to reimburse or we want to whatever. To me, that’s telling me that there is an understanding of our value, that we’re not just this thing. We’re not just like, oh, this is cute. No, these hospital systems, these major corporations, these things are like – even colleges are like, how do we get doulas in here because that’s what’s being desired, and that’s something that will bring value to us. But I’m saying that all to say that doulas are seeing that and not even equating that their value is higher than what they think it is. Does that make sense? If hospitals and these people, whoever, want to have doulas as a part of it, it’s because there is a value there, whether we’re saving money, saving lives, doing whatever. And so it bothers me when doulas who are actually doing this work don’t see themselves as valuable when these systems are saying, there’s value. Literally, it’s why we want to have you here.

Right. And depending on the state, the Medicaid reimbursement rates may not be high enough.

Now, they may not respect your value. They might not respect your value, but they’re putting you there for a reason.

Yes, and certainly reducing intervention, increasing patient satisfaction. There are so many studies on the benefits and advantages of doulas, and I am thankful, as you mentioned, for the awareness of the birth doula role. I think we are a long way off from the general public understanding what a postpartum doula is or a newborn care specialist and how an NCS would replace that night nanny or night nurse. And they’re becoming a credentialed industry of their own with postpartum doulas caring for the entire family and their client during the recovery process after the birth and supporting feeding and all of that. I’ve been trying to get as many opportunities to educate on that role because, as you mentioned, especially with the pandemic, birth doulas are becoming much more known, but I still feel like that postnatal phase is an area where our clients are getting neglected. With perinatal mood disorders and a lot of medical concerns that can happen after the birth and before that six week visit – it’s very concerning.

I mean, I wish that people had more understanding, especially of that six week period of how much goes wrong. I mean, obviously, there can be severe cases where people are dying from infection within those six weeks. People are dying from complications. They’re dying from postpartum eclampsia. Those kind of things, too, are very severe cases. But when I say, like, what can go wrong, I’m even talking about, like, a parent’s decision to not continue with nursing because no one’s there.

Right. There’s no support.

That’s the stuff that’s going wrong. Or someone, you know, had the beginnings of a postpartum mood disorder starting to be present, but no one’s there. I’m not talking about the biggest catastrophes that we see on the news, like people going into psychosis and harming their children. Everyone sees that. But there are so many other things that happen in that time that, if a doula is not present – not that families are present, but everyone has to go to work. We just live in this capitalist society where your aunt, your grandmother, whatever, they’re still going to work. And even the things that go wrong, it’s like a partner being able to connect with their partner because there’s no one there to provide the support that they need to reconnect. And now that is felt through the next year or two, whatever the case may be, to maybe possibly a divorce. Those are the things that, especially in postpartum work, I feel like a lot of my postpartum work – yeah, obviously, helping take care of the baby and the parent, but a lot of it was saving marriages.

I am 100% on board with that. I feel like we can save marriages. They can get time to communicate. They feel like their needs are being met, especially when the partner is, as you mentioned, going back to work very quickly, so they are both tired and stressed. It’s hard, often, for our clients to ask for help if they’re home and their partner is back at work. I know when my husband went right back to work the day after I had my daughter, he would come home, and all I would want to do is talk to him. I needed adult interaction, and he just wanted to relax. I was like, here’s the baby. I want to talk. And he needed some time. And if I had a postpartum doula – which they weren’t really a thing then. My daughter is now 13. In my community, there were very few of them, and they weren’t really promoted. I could have used someone to help care for me and talk to me when I’m dealing with feeding issues, which I did get support from lactation on, and having a baby coming home from the NICU and all the overwhelm that comes with that.

For sure. It’s quite busy. And I think doulas, sometimes you come into this work, you’re like, okay, I’m going to have a birth client, whatever. We’re going to work together for six months to a year, whatever that looks like. And then we’re going to have some type of relationship. But I think also the role of doulas of any form is you find out that you’re sometimes a lifetime buddy. You know, now you’re helping them make the decision or helping them to think through the decision, do they even want to have more kids? Right? Or they’re pregnant and they didn’t expect it and they feel a way about it. They’re like, I’m not exactly happy, right?

So many things.

I think back to that, and I’m like, who else would they have talked to?

Yeah, because, I mean, sometimes, some of these topics can’t be openly discussed with friends or family members, and everyone has their own idea of how things should be done. And it’s often well-meaning advice, but to have someone who is a non-medical expert in the home to be able to run things by and have that emotional support as well as the resources. It’s so helpful.

I think I love that part – I’m not that old, but in my life path, where I’m at now, I really love holding space for those conversations. I love holding space for the people who’ve had kids and they’re like, never again. Or who are like, I want to have ten more, but how can I do that, because there’s this social pressure that says that I shouldn’t do that. Because if you don’t have a certain amount of money and you want to have five kids, people judge you for wanting to have five kids and not being super well off. I love having those kind of conversations that require a lot of nuance and require a lot of depth, I guess, and just sitting with people and being like, well, what do you think today?

I love it, too. A topic that comes up at that six week appointment is contraception and family planning. So you do have to really sort some of that out. There is a lot of judgment on the one-and-done families of not wanting to add on, and also, as you had mentioned, the larger families. So dealing with some of that when you have a doula there to talk through, whether you want to be finished with your family, or you would like to plan for another, but how do you budget that? How do you work that out if you are working career-wise because, as you know, women get set back for each time they have kids. Advancements, promotions. It’s getting better as far as maternity packages and mentoring for women in business, but we’re not there yet. There’s so much work to be done.

There’s so much work to be done, and I think one of the things that we do as doulas is basically to say, like, you’re damned if you do; you’re damned if you don’t, so what are you going to do? What do you just want to do, because we can talk about the pros and cons of things for your personal health, your personal whatever, but I think specifically when we’re talking about women, specifically, it’s just kind of like – I think we hold space, and I think this is kind of the spiritual part of it, like we hold space for, what do you want to do? What does that mean for you in your life? Is that in alignment with you? How do you work through your fear of rejection? How do we work through this thing because as doulas, I feel like we want people to live whole, happy lives. That’s the place that we hold.

Yes. And feel like they made the best decision for them in that moment. Again, my goal as a doula, similar to yours – I don’t want to be the influencer or be someone who wants someone to give birth or parent the way I did or feed my children the way I did. There are so few people like doulas in that we don’t have an agenda. Even providers sometimes have an agenda.

Oh, yeah, for sure, 1000%. And I think to be fair, you know, not every doula is going to have the same approach or the same vibe. I think being a doula or being a midwife or being whatever doesn’t make you obsolete from harm, but I think that part of the work that you’re doing, part of the work that I’m doing is also creating more understanding of, ideally, what a doula would be doing for you. Ideally, they wouldn’t have an agenda. Ideally, they would be listening to you and what choices you want and giving you unbiased information on what those things can lead to or pros and cons and so on and so forth. And sometimes you don’t come across that. Sometimes you come across someone who’s harmful. But I think the work around that, whether it’s writing or podcasting or any type of media – it’s to put the message out there more so that when a birthing person comes in contact with a doula, they know what they’re looking for. They know what they’re not looking for.

Exactly, yes. So we are running out of time, Sabia, but I would love for you to share some of the top tips from your book. Let us know how to purchase that and how to connect with you in all of the different social media channels and your website. You’re everywhere!

I would say my biggest thing, and I talk about it a lot in the book, is that everything starts with you. So if you have a goal of wanting to be a doula, or if you are a doula, it still centers you. What is your well-being? What traumas are at the surface? What work are you doing for yourself? What do you put in your body? What are you listening to? What are you reading? All of it starts with us, just as much as we push that our clients are these vessels, we are also these vessels, and having that mutual respect for our clients and wanting to show up for our clients in the ways of showing up for ourselves. That makes us even better doulas and people in general, actually. So I would say that. And then Birthing Liberation, my book, can be found anywhere. I have no preference on where people buy it. As far as finding me, I’m most available and most social on Instagram. So @sabiawade. I’m in other places, too. Of course, my website is always the best way to see what’s going on or reach out to me for different things.

I know you’ve got book links there. You’re on Amazon. You’re in some bookstores.

I know some people are not purchasing from Amazon, which I obviously understand, so please feel free to buy or purchase wherever. And also, just a reminder that the book is available in audio version, because accessibility is important. So that’s always available for folks who would like to utilize that option.

Thank you so much for the important work you’re doing! I hope that, again, this focus on spirituality – and I know you’re torn in so many directions, but please keep getting that message out, and let me know what I can do to support you, Sabia.

Thank you!

We will plan to keep our conversations going. You’re always one of my favorite guests.

Thank you!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Sabia Wade

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Spirituality and Doula work with Sabia Wade: Podcast Episode #248 Read More »

Preparing for the Postpartum Phase with Mariela De Santiago: Podcast Episode #247

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Mariela De Santiago discuss how preparation during pregnancy can impact your postnatal recovery phase. Mariela hosts the New Mom Podcast and is the founder of the Carlsbad Mom Crew.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Mariela De Santiago today. Mariela is the host of the New Mom Talk Podcast, and she is also the founder of the Carlsbad Mom Crew. Welcome, Mariela!

Hello! Thank you so much for having me! I’m excited to be here!

I can’t wait to dive into our topic, which is the importance of preparing for postpartum during pregnancy versus waiting until after you have your baby.

I love this topic.

Before we get into it, I would love to hear more about your journey as a mom and how you got into podcasting and supporting moms with your Carlsbad Mom Crew.

Yes, so it all started with me being a first time mom, which I think many of us can relate to. I realized I had a ton of questions and found myself on Google when I should have been napping. You know how they tell you to nap when the baby naps. I could not do that. I was on Google, everything from why do my boobs hurt; oh, my gosh, that’s a clogged duct. How many diapers should my baby be going through? What’s the difference between cloth and disposable diapers? You name it, anything and everything. And I thought to myself, why isn’t there a podcast that just brings experts on to answer these commonly Googled topics? So I created it, and then out of that, I took over what was originally Carlsbad Moms and I’ve had that for just over a year. I’ve since then rebranded, built it up to what it is today, expanded to now have Sandiego Mom Crew, and that came out of that desire of wanting to connect with other moms that were also in the same place as I was, being a first time mom, being new to the area, not knowing other moms, wanting to just connect and have meet-ups at, like, a park. Just being able to invite a friend and say, hey, do you want to go do tummy time underneath a tree in the shade? It’s just so hard when you’re a first time mom, and if you’re the first one out of your mom friends, things change and you need to build new relationships.

Exactly. I had kids later in life, so most of my circle of friends had advice that wasn’t relevant. So many changes, as far as feeding and baby gear and even safe sleep has some changes. So their advice was helpful, but I learned that hiring experts is the way to go.

Yes. Well, I feel like also just the science has evolved. What’s accessible to us, things that you hear – I mean, I will say that I did not know the difference between a doula and a midwife until I started my podcast. I also did not know what pelvic floor physical therapy was until I started my podcast. That was eight months after I had a baby. Isn’t that crazy?

It’s so common. That is the biggest misconception is that we are actually midwives and catch babies, and people are so confused about the non-medical doula role and the role of a homebirth midwife.

Yes. So I just wanted to be able to educate moms and provide the answers in short little snippets. With that came my love and passion for the whole postpartum stage, which again, I didn’t realize until I was in it.

And with the Mom Crew, again, you’re getting women who may feel very isolated, whether it’s baby one or baby four, and it becomes this overwhelming time where people may bring you a meal, and it’s all about the baby after birth, but then the mother feels left out of it and has emotions they want to process. Being with other moms who are going through the same thing at the same time – and you talked about going to classes together or meeting in a park – can be so beneficial.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you’re discovering who you are as a new person. You’re all a sudden in charge of another human. You’re sleep deprived. Your body is so different. Being able to find the connections or the support that you need for yourself is so important.

Exactly. And I know that your podcast is all about interviewing experts in the birth and baby space, similar to mine, but you learned a bit about doulas; again, the role for a doula versus a midwife. You mentioned pelvic floor therapists. What other experts do you feel are important to know about during pregnancy to plan for the postnatal phase?

The differences between the doulas, so being able to research or determine, do you want both a birth doula or a postpartum doula? You can have both. What would serve you best? Meeting with pelvic floor physical therapists to help you during that prenatal phase. Obviously, check with your doctor before, but finding a workout to help you during this stage. For me, that was yoga. So there are plenty of prenatal yoga classes that really help you with the stretching and relieving some of the discomforts. I think that’s so important because you’re moving slower, but you probably still want to move and get stretched out and do some sort of a workout. So for me, prenatal yoga was very important. I already had been working out prior. I know that some of the recommendations change depending on whether you have worked out prior to being pregnant or not. That’s very personal.

Find a sleep consultant if you think you might need one. I know that this is kind of a hot topic. I am all for, you do what’s best for you. If you think that a sleep consultant is going to serve you, then do that. If you don’t need one or don’t think you’re going to need one, then maybe just hold onto a contact for later on and you can start to interview.

And sleep consulting gets a bit of a bad rap. We have four sleep consultants on our team. I think there’s a difference between sleep training and, say, the cry it out method, and a customized plan that is based on your family’s needs and goals that a sleep consultant would walk you through and support you by text and phone and sometimes in person to implement even very gentle strategies. It doesn’t have to be letting your baby cry, closing the door to the nursery, and feeling like you’re abandoning your baby.

Yeah. And we did sleep training. We did the Ferber method when my son was probably five months old or so, and it worked. That was fine for us. We didn’t need anything too crazy or too intense. We didn’t just let him cry uncontrollably. But after two days, it was great. Now, that doesn’t work for everyone, and that’s okay.

Exactly. And you waited. Some people want to start sleep consulting or training very early, and we don’t recommend doing it until at least 12 weeks, so you waiting until that five month point in time is very helpful.

Yeah, and I felt like I knew him pretty well. He had already been sleeping through the night. We just went through a pretty intense four month sleep regression. Those are rough. And also, if you plan on breastfeeding or nursing, reach out to lactation consultants. Have one that you can connect with if it is a support that you need later on.

Exactly. Such great advice. Taking a breastfeeding class or a pumping class, if the goal is to exclusively pump or understand your options when going back to work are fantastic and involving your partner or support person is even better so they can then support your feeding journey.

Yes, because it is a lot of work. I nursed for nineteen months, and it was tough.

Yeah, that’s a commitment. Good job!

Thanks! He stopped taking a bottle at nine months, so at that point, I was home with him. It was easier for me to just put him on the boob than having to pump and then do a bottle, so it was fine for us in our situation, but I know that can’t always be the case, especially if I was working, that wasn’t going to be realistic or possible.

Exactly. And one thing I’m sure that you face, not only with your podcast guests but also in your mom crew, is childcare. I mean, we’re in a childcare crisis. Figuring out your plan on whether you use a center or an in-home licensed daycare or have a parent – many grandparents are taking on the childcare role. So figuring that out as early in the pregnancy as possible is my recommendation there.

Yes, and determining the differences. If you have a spare room in your house, maybe looking into an au pair might be a great alternative that ends up being a little bit more affordable. But now that means that you have a room that’s occupied by an au pair. So there’s a lot of options. There’s now services that are more where moms support one another. If you are needing more of just part-time or maybe a few times a week versus a full time childcare placement. So there’s lots of options. Also, it’s pretty pricy, right?

It is, certainly. And it can essentially end up being most of your salary. So again, if you’re looking at a center or an in-home daycare, it can be quite pricy. Looking at the transportation and time involved. Sometimes, as you mentioned, a nanny or an au pair is a good solution. If you’re not interested in live-in, there are overnight postpartum doulas or newborn care specialists that can come in seven nights a week or just for a few nights or, as you mentioned earlier, helping during a sleep regression.

Yes. And I would say definitely if you can, use those services because I can only imagine that transition going from you had a baby. Let’s say you only get three months off. Now all of a sudden, you’re going back to work, which is a different change of routine, and then you have a sleep regression, so now you’re even more sleep deprived. Get those supports so that you can really do your best; it’s so essential. And it shows strength, right? Sometimes I feel like we tend to feel a little bit weak when we ask for help or support, but it really does show a lot more strength for you to be able to admit what your capacity is and what you can take on and what you need to give to others to help you.

100%. And it can be uncomfortable communicating your needs to others and having those conversations. Certain personality types want to help others and it’s hard for them to ask for help, so again, in prepping for that postpartum phase, having some conversations with family members or your partner about how they can best support you.

That’s super important. Another thing that I didn’t mention was therapists. Maybe have one in hand in case you do end up suffering from – whether it’s postpartum anxiety or postpartum depression. You just want to have a contact, somebody that you either have referred to or that you met and you just had a great connection. But I think it’s so much easier to have a list of contacts to reach out to than it is to search for that when you’re in the moment and you’re overwhelmed.

Exactly. And if you have a doula, part of our role is to give trusted resources in the areas that we work, whether it’s a birth doula or a postpartum doula, so we certainly have trusted mental health therapists that specialize in perinatal mood disorders or sometimes there is a traumatic birth or other issues that could certainly use either a support group or one on one therapy.

Yeah, and I always tell my husband, if we have another one, I am 1000% getting a postpartum doula if we can. Just the difference between having a doula that has those connections that can recommend different services to you, that knows proper care, somebody that – I mean, I always say this, and I know it probably doesn’t sound that great, but paid help versus having your mom or your in-law – somebody that is helping you with the baby, there’s a big difference. I personally would feel a lot more comfortable telling a postpartum doula what I needed help with because I know I’m paying for that support, and I can always ask questions, such as, hey, can you take a look at my scar? I’m feeling a little uncomfortable on this side of the C-section. Those types of things were – you know that they see it all the time. This is their specialty. They’re constantly being educated in the newest and latest versus somebody that maybe had a baby five years ago or even three years ago. There’s a big difference, right?

Yes. Such a big difference, and if it’s a family member, sometimes there’s a bit of judgment, or they may want you to focus on sleep in a way that worked for them or even one of your other siblings, and having an expert that has the evidence-based information and is not there with any judgment, no agenda, can be very helpful.

Yes. And also, they can advice you on the best meals or types of things to eat to help with the recovery process. They can also just help you out with telling you what you need for recovery as far as, let’s say, the mesh underwear, or maybe more pads, whatever it is. A lot easier to talk to an expert or a friend about that than it is to, I don’t know, let’s say, talk with your mom about that.

And if there’s anything that needs a referral, we can suggest calling your OB, calling the pediatrician. We know what’s in the realm of normal and can encourage our clients to get additional support.

I love this topic, just because it’s something that I feel like we tend to not think about very much. It’s more that we prepare for the baby. We prepare for the nursery. We prepare the registry. And then all of a sudden, you have a baby, and your visits with your care provider really diminish. You might have hair loss. You are crying all the time. All of a sudden, your body is swollen and different. So we aren’t thinking about what is it that we might need during this stage, to just feel as close to human and the best person that you could be for yourself at this time while also caring for a new human.

It’s beautiful. And certainly, I’ve seen a big trend in friends and family members gifting postpartum support or a housekeeper or a diaper service. Different services that can make life easier versus buying that stroller or things that you might not even use until your baby is a year old and just sit around and clutter up your house.

Yes. And we spend so much money on baby items that they’re going to use for a few short months. One perfect example is a very expensive bassinet, like the one that rocks and is over $1000.

The Snoo, yes.

Yes. And I had some people mention that. I personally did not want to go that route because my thought was, that’s really expensive. If I need it, then I’ll buy it, but I’d rather just go with the one that the Uppa Baby came with. We did that. My son was in the bassinet for two months because he did not like the bassinet, and I did not have to spend over $1000. I could have used $1000 to go towards, let’s say, a postpartum doula or, yes, a housecleaner or some meal prepping service that would just drop off fully cooked meals and not just Door Dash. There’s just a lot more that I could do with $1000 to actually help me out versus a bassinet.

Yes. And then again as you’re setting up a baby registry, you don’t know what’s going to work. Some babies don’t like a certain swaddle, and you think – you know, your friend had a great experience with it, or with a bassinet, as you mentioned. And there are rental services with the Snoo and some higher end bassinets, but that’s still expensive. Some babies don’t take to them.

I always say, keep that registry as minimal as possible, and then if you need it, get it, but don’t spend so much on something that you’re not sure if you’re going to need. A stroller? Yeah. Highly recommend that you spend on a stroller that you love. You’re going to need it.

Right. A car seat, a crib. I mean, there’s some basic things, whether you purchase them yourself or register for at a baby shower or a sprinkle. That can be helpful. But until you get into it, you don’t really know what your baby is going to need. And some bottles might be great for your sister, but may not work for your own baby.

Yes, I’ve heard so many stories about that, and that’s tough.

Yes, because they can be pricy, and if you buy all the different nipple sizes and inserts and then it doesn’t work, then you either are cluttering up your house and you get frustrated and then you have to try something else, which may or may not work.

Yeah. And another option, too – there’s a lot of milk freezer freeze dry services now, so that’s another great option for postpartum support. You could have people give you money to go towards that, especially if you’re wanting to give your little one breast milk for a longer period and you have to go back to work. Well, just get your milk freeze dried. It’s expensive, but now that’s so much easier for you because you don’t have to worry about all of these milk bags potentially going bad, depending on who’s feeding your baby. It’s a small powder form like formula. That’s a great alternative. I plan on doing that.

Great tip! So what else are you thinking would be essential during pregnancy as far as preparing for a new baby?

Have a list of items that you want people to do when they come visit the baby. So yes, people always want to come and visit and hold the baby, but you still can’t host, and you shouldn’t. So I tell myself this: I will have a list of things, whether it’s like, hey, thank you so much for coming to meet my baby. Can you just switch the laundry load for me and then you can hold my baby? Can you unload the dishwasher? Just have them do something for you because any little thing like that helps you so much when you’re recovering. Like, you’re moving slow. You really need as much support as you can get, and I don’t think anyone is going to say, oh, yeah, I’m not going to load your dishwasher.

Right. And some people want to help, but they don’t know how to help. Having a list of tasks helps so much.

Yeah. And they can just pick out of that.

Some of my clients will put a little sheet on their fridge with a checklist of options that would be a great help, and then a family member or friend can check off the tasks that they completed. Folding a load of laundry, for example, of newborn clothes or towels, or unloading the dishwasher or cutting up some snacks and refilling water. Things that a postpartum doula would do.

Yeah, and they’re very simple tasks. It doesn’t take very long. That help goes so far.

Yes. Or running a vacuum. We’re not supposed to vacuum after giving birth.

Oh, wow. I don’t think I knew that. But I didn’t vacuum!

That’s good! It’s just about lifting. You’re supposed to reduce the number of times you go up and down stairs. Again, a friend or family member could run downstairs if you’re in your room and bring something that you needed, so you’re reducing that. And part of it is, if you’re too active, then that can cause more bleeding in recovery. Your body will tell you, you need to slow down.

Other things that you can also add into this registry, which are all of these that we’ve already mentioned – I know some people want to have a birth photographer at their birth. Maybe that’s something that you can have people give towards instead of that onesie, or a newborn photo shoot where you have a newborn photographer come to your home and catch those moments with your little one as opposed to you going to a studio and doing all of the little newborn things. The newborn photo shoots are super cute, but we opted for doing the ones where they’re in our home, and it was so special because we didn’t have to go anywhere. They catered to the baby’s schedule. If you’re feeding, they take pictures of you just in the moment catching what your reality is at that point.

We did the same thing, and it’s documentary style, very lifestyle focused. I love those. I did some in studio, as well, but the ones at home are my favorites, for sure.

They are, and you can turn those into a book. We did that. That way, you have all of the pictures somewhere that you can actually see them instead of in a computer.

Excellent. Yes, we have so much with digital photography. It’s great, but to actually take the time to print doesn’t always happen. For me, I need to catch up. My kids, with all of their activities – to put a book together is something that is always low on my to-do list.

It takes a long time!

Yes! Any other tips, Mariela?

Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway is, your body is really going to change. It’s not going to come back right away. You’re bloated for months. So invest in quality clothes that are going to make you feel good and comfortable with where you are. And accept that it’s going to change later on, but just really get things that make you feel good with the place that you’re in because I didn’t want to do that, and I always felt frumpy. If I had just done that one thing, I feel like I would have felt a lot more put together.

I love it. And you never know if someone’s going to pop over, so having some cute tops that are easy to breastfeed in or a nice PJ set – it does make a difference, and that soft material is a game changer for sure because you don’t want anything starchy or rough, especially with feeding. You’re so tender during that time.

Yeah. When you’re building this registry, really think about what you’re going to need after you have the baby, and ask for it. I think we’re in a place now where we are so willing to support each other and say, oh, I love that this person is asking for these nursing bras, or that beautiful shirt for themselves; I will get that!

Yes. And there are some great postpartum subscription boxes that have items that are geared not only toward baby, but also for the mother and self-care and some clothing and nursing bras. I love that trend.

Yes. I just really hope that all moms out there think about themselves. It’s so hard to do, especially with your first one, but make sure that you don’t leaver yourself out, because this is your time, your moment of transitioning, discovering who you are. So make it what you want it to be.

We don’t get a do-over of this postpartum phase or birth, so I agree, preparation makes a huge difference! So how can our listeners connect with you, Mariela?

The easiest way is to go to my website, newmomtalk.com. On there, you can find my podcast and Instagram page. If you’re in the San Diego area, you can find me on Instagram @carlsbadmomcrew or @sandiegomomcrew. I would love to connect. Please be sure to tune in and sign up for my newsletter. If you have a topic in mind, please reach out. I love hearing from moms and supporting moms. It’s something that I’m very passionate about, after having one!

I can tell! Thank you for all of your work in supporting moms in the San Diego area. Your podcast has such an incredible reach and is certainly educating moms everywhere. I appreciate the work you’re doing, and I would love to talk to you again, Mariela!

Thank you for having me!

IMPORTANT LINKS

New Mom Talk

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Preparing for the Postpartum Phase with Mariela De Santiago: Podcast Episode #247 Read More »

Healing Childhood Trauma in Early Parenting: Podcast Episode #246

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Emily Cleghorn shares her personal story of overcoming trauma and discusses the importance of support during motherhood on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas. She also discusses navigating triggers and tantrums as you heal your childhood trauma in the midst of early parenting. Emily is the founder of Mindful Soul Wellness.

Hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Emily Cleghorn today. Emily is an award-winning trauma recovery coach, author, podcaster, and inspirational speaker on a mission to support trauma surviving mamas to navigate triggers and tantrums as they heal their childhood trauma in the midst of parenting. Passionate about creating positive ripples for generations to come, Emily shares her powerful story of overcoming the veil of her own trauma placed over her life to inspire audiences and readers that they too can achieve peace and healing.

Emily owns Mended Soul Wellness. She is, again, a holistic trauma recovery coach.

Welcome, Emily!

Thank you for having me! I’m excited to be here.

Yes, I’m excited to get into a very sensitive topic of addressing past trauma and going into parenting, whether it’s baby number one or baby number four. We’d love to have you share not only your personal story and how it led you to this particular career choice, but also tips that you might have for our listeners.

Yes! I became a mama in 2018, and leading up to that, I struggled with infertility for a bit. It wasn’t until I took my health journey into my own hands that I learned that infertility was being caused by my stress response, which was a result of my trauma. So trauma can impact your life deeply.

When I was able to successfully carry a child to term and became a mama, I was completely unaware of how my childhood would impact my life as a mother. And I wasn’t very far postpartum – I wasn’t very far into the journey when it was like what I call the trauma freight train side railed me, and it was all of my repressed emotions, everything that I had pushed down over the years of my childhood growing up demanding to be dealt with, demanding to have some attention given to them. So my daughter was born. She was the spitting image of me as an infant, which is really cute, in my biased opinion, but also really triggering.

I struggled at the beginning of my motherhood journey to discern where the boundaries were with regards to where I started and stopped and where my biological mom stopped and I started and then where I stopped and my daughter started. And my stress response was on high alert. Get the heck out of here, because it’s not safe. It took me a really long time to understand that my mother of a mother wound was the obstacle that was preventing me from enjoying the transition. It’s a huge life change.

It sure is, yes.

And if you’ve got a mother wound, it can play a huge part into your transition into motherhood. So it took me a long time to come to terms with that. That’s a bit of my journey.

It’s hard to even realize that we’re repeating patterns from our own childhood when you’re really trying to focus on conscious parenting and being mindful, but some things just show up as patterns, and we don’t even know that it’s happening until, say, a partner or a husband brings it up.

Yeah. What I learned very quickly is that I needed to work on my nervous system because if my nervous system, my stress response, was preventing me from establishing a healthy pregnancy, then it showed up again in postpartum with my stress response being on high alert and my flight or fight response kicking in. Then any stimulus from a baby crying, a busy household, which happens when you have two kids and they enter the toddler phase – they’re busy all of the time, and kids scream and cry. That’s just how they communicate, right? But my nervous system couldn’t handle it because I was on the edge so far for so long.

That makes sense. So you saw that you needed to get help? Obviously, your adrenals and the hormone changes after giving birth – there’s so much fluctuation as it is, and a lot of people don’t even recognize that they need certain minerals, they need to focus on their diet, and seeking help if the cortisol levels are elevated, as you mentioned.

Yes. I developed a lot of mindfulness strategies, but one of the biggest tools that I utilized during that time was community because so often as a new mama, whether it’s baby number one or baby number four or baby number seven – however many babies you have, those early weeks and months of motherhood can feel so lonely, especially if you are a trauma-surviving mama and you are dealing with the trauma and maybe you don’t have your mom in your life anymore. Maybe there’s estrangement or something like that going on. That can amplify the feelings of isolation. So finding a community for me was huge, of other mamas, mature mamas who have been there and done that. They know what is going on, and they have space for compassion and to sit and listen and just hold space.

So important, and as doulas, yes, just being there and open to allow conversation to begin rather than forcing conversation is so important.

Yeah. It’s huge.

So what was the community that you found? Was it, say, a mom group that you connected with virtually that had in-person meet-ups, or did you intentionally reach out to friends who were also mothers? I’m curious about what worked for you. This may help our listeners and doula clients find their own community.

I sought out a community of like-minded mamas. For me, I am very holistic minded, natural remedies and stuff. I was looking for mamas who were older than I was. They had kids that were older than my daughter, so they had a bit more experience than me. I was looking for that mother-type figure that I was missing. I sought out a community of more mature – maybe they were a little bit older than me – mamas who were like-minded, who were healing focused, because when you are healing trauma, it’s so easy to find a community that is willing to commiserate with you, but that’s not helpful in healing. So I was looking for people who were like-minded, healing focused, that could help me out, give me the support that I needed when I couldn’t support myself.

Beautiful. I love it. Very helpful to, again, focus on finding common ground, like-minded moms, not just any mom who had a baby within the last two months. I know at support groups, you might connect with one or two and then maybe include them in a separate meet-up, but I found before I became a doula with my first and second children, from my childbirth class, I had meet-ups with fellow students in my class after we had our babies and we went on adventures together with our kids. That gave me a sense of community and people in the same stage of life. I had kids later in life, but what you’re talking about a whole different level beyond that, of really creating a community where kids can grow up together, if you have the same values and focus, and as you mentioned, your lifestyle is very similar.

So how did you get into coaching? I see how intentional you were about focusing on mindfulness and parenting, but what led you to want to help other moms, other than the community you created of moms?

So when I was a little girl, I remember – I think I was, like, six or seven years old, and I remember walking across a parking lot. I was going to a child psychologist appointment, and I remember thinking, someday I want to help kids like me. And in the midst of growing up and all of that, that dream was still there, but I didn’t know what it was going to look like.

So when I was in my postpartum days with my daughter – those days were quite dark for me, very heavy. And I knew that I am not special enough to be the only one dealing with the heavy emotions of childhood trauma while also trying to raise a child and be the mama that she deserves. And so I started searching for ways that I could help kids like me, now mamas, and I embarked on a dual certification process to become a health and life coach. My passion is in helping mama who are navigating their triggers because nobody tells us that mamahood can be triggering if you’ve got junk in your past. So that is my passion because I firmly believe that our children are gifts, and they were not given to us to inherit our junk. Healing is a huge part of not giving them our junk.

Exactly. What would be the difference in seeing a therapist, as you had mentioned you had, and having coaching? Would that be something that would be done in tandem, or maybe after therapy sessions have ended and it’s time to move forward, if someone doesn’t have the continuous therapy throughout their life?

It can be done in tandem. It can be done side by side. However, the difference is, your therapist is interested in digging down deep into the roots and helping you work through the trauma. Okay? My role is not to dig down to the roots. My job is to focus on the now, and I do a process of compassionate inquiry to see how the events of the past are affecting your now. I’m focused on helping you improve now. So a therapist digs down to the roots, and I focus on the right now, how it’s impacting your life right now.

Very helpful. And when you mentioned trauma, for our listeners, there are obviously different levels and types of trauma. As a birth doula, I support clients who may have had a traumatic birth or a prior loss or a loss during the pregnancy while I’ve been supporting them. Those are things related to motherhood, but there could be past trauma if, say, a sibling had died. Would you consider parents divorcing in childhood a trauma? What would be a typical client that you would work with as a trauma recovery coach?

First of all, trauma is not the event. It’s what you make it mean about you. So I could be working with a mama who had their parents divorce and it was messy and there’s some trauma around that with regards to relationships. It could be a mama like me who has been abandoned by her mother or is estranged from her mother and is worried about how that is impacting her ability to be a mother to her children. With all of these events, we internalize them to mean different things about us, how we interpret them into our story and what we perceive that they mean about us.

And certainly I would think that medical traumas – again, as a birth doula, like past histories of surgery or fear of the hospital – there can be some of those concerns going into another pregnancy or again, having loss. So it sounds like as long as someone is continuously navigating something – if someone had PTSD from a traumatic birth, a therapist would be the first step, and then if it was lingering, then working with a recovery coach in tandem to help through the day to day and address the issue and try to come up with some action steps to, again, focus on being the best parent that they can while healing themselves, which is challenging, because you’re caregiving for one or multiple kids and then trying to take care of yourself postnatal.

Oh, yeah. Because so often, we feel like because we have our children, that we no longer matter or that we come last. Sometimes we do need to come last because babies need us for every need to stay alive. But sometimes, we need to come first because we can’t give from an empty cup, and I know that sounds so cliché, but it’s true. If you have nothing left, if you’re tapped out emotionally, then how are you going to co-regulate with your child when they’re having a fit?

Right. Yes. So what are some of the strategies that you work through with your clients, if you have any tips for our listeners in that early parenting phase that can be so stressful?

Yes. First and foremost, if you are able to find a community, make that a priority, to have at least one or two people that you can count on and are like-minded and will hold space for you to feel the feelings that you’re working through because it’s such a huge life change. Another tip that I would give is to develop a plan with your spouse or your significant other about how you’re going to communicate that you need a minute to breathe because so often as moms, we feel like we have to do it all. Our husband or our significant other is just waiting for you to tell them what to do or to allow them to help. So communicate beforehand how you are going to communicate that in the moment, because so often, it can come out as being snippy or short with someone when really, you just need a minute to take a walk, get a breath of fresh air, and maybe a shower, and then you’re good to go again.

Yeah, that’s very helpful advice. And we all just do need that minute, even if it’s meditating, focusing on our breath, having a sip of water – just a way to calm down the adrenals.

Yes!

So as far as working with you, Emily, what would that look like, and how do our listeners connect?

So if you are looking for a holistic trauma recovery coach, I currently have five one-to-one spaces available in my Mended Mama Academy. It is a three-month program, and right now, I have promotional pricing so that it does not break the bank. If you are interested in learning more about that, you can go to my website. There’s a button on the homepage that says Work With Me, and you can learn more there.

Excellent. And you’re also on social media, so how can we find you on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube?

If you just search my name on YouTube, you should be able to find me that way. On Instagram, I am @emily.cleghorn.coach. And on Facebook, you can find me through my podcast, which is the Mamahood After Trauma podcast.

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing your tips and your personal story and for helping so many moms during an isolating and life-changing time. We all do need support and community, so I love that you are encouraging in-person community and also creating a virtual community for your students and your coaching clients.

Yes! Thanks so much for having me!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Mamahood After Trauma

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Healing Childhood Trauma in Early Parenting: Podcast Episode #246 Read More »

A Postpartum Doula’s Role in Nourishing the Mother: Podcast Episode #245

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Jodi Graves of Michigan Family Doulas discuss the importance of postnatal and prenatal nutrition. They also talk about the role of the postpartum doula and how they can support families after baby arrives on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.

Hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to chat with Jodi Graves. Jodi is the CEO of Michigan Family Doulas. She’s an accomplished professional with a profound commitment to modernizing birth and postpartum care in the United States. With her extensive nutrition, functional medicine, nursing (LPN), and psychology education, Jodi leads Michigan Family Doulas and serves as an elite certified doula trainer. Her personal experience has fueled her passion for empowering birthing individuals and their partners, advocating for informed consent and fostering a sense of agency and education in the birthing process. Jodi’s dedication extends beyond her family in Brighton, Michigan, including the love of her life, her two daughters, and dogs, to her love for Hawaii and her lifelong dream of saving the whales.

Welcome, Jodi!

I love hearing that – the saving the whales part.

Yes, that is awesome! It’s so amazing to have you join us. I know our topic today is focused on postnatal nutrition, and with your background, you’re the perfect guest to address that topic.

Yes, it’s one of my favorites. One of my favorite topics.

I would love to have you tell a bit of your personal story about how you got into not only doula work, but also all of the other related modalities focusing on women’s health.

Yeah. Well, so I started out in nursing school back in the ‘90s and completed nursing school and did a little bit of time being on an oncology floor in a local hospital. And I said, this is just not for me. I was absolutely miserable. And so I went running and screaming away from it and kind of did a 180 and started really thinking about, what am I passionate about, and what am I already knowledgeable about? And the answer for me was women’s health related issues and food and nutrition. And so then I went down the path of exploring a nutrition degree and doing something in the nutrition field, and I ended up getting a bachelor’s and a master’s, both in naturopathy and nutrition. And then I guess just for fun, I ended up with a psychology degree in there. I started taking some psychology classes and was just so hooked it ended up being a degree. It’s actually relevant for the work I do, honestly.

Absolutely. So relevant.

For sure. But then it kind of evolved, and from the naturopathic degrees, I ended up becoming a clinical nutritionist. And I’m certainly very passionate about women’s health in the reproductive cycle, but my people are now perimenopausal and menopausal, so I also work with women when we come out of that childbearing cycle. It’s all about women’s health.

That is the overlying theme that I see with your work. I know you also do a lot within the advocacy space, if you’d like to touch on that.

Well, birth and postpartum in this country has, to put it mildly, is severely lacking. When you compare us to the rest of the world and all other industrialized countries, we consistently get much lower scores than everyone else. The March of Dimes the last couple years gave us a D+. I mean, we’re just – we’re failing women. So I am passionate about change. I’m passionate about, honestly, an entire overhaul of the system as my goal because what we’re doing isn’t working, and women are continuing to die post birth, certainly. During birth, absolutely. At just embarrassing rates, right? And it just keeps climbing. So it’s time for an overhaul.

100%. And where does nutrition fall into that advocacy work?

I think it’s a largely overlooked piece of health in general across the board for everyone, but certainly in pregnancy and postpartum recovery, it’s not something that is talked about with physicians. And to defend them, I guess, physicians don’t have any training in nutrition services. So they are not somebody that should be relied on for information or guidance as far as nutrition is concerned. So if it’s not talked about at the doctor’s office, it’s really not being considered. I think part of our problem in this country is nutrition related. You can be obese and still be malnourished. We are one of the countries across the world that has that as a real, legitimate problem.

Yes. And certainly postnatal, that is a big focus of yours. That depletion is a real issue, and that can be dehydration, lack of the nutrients and minerals needed, especially for breastfeeding mothers. They get even more depleted. But recovering from birth, there are so many things where nutrition is important, and if you don’t have, say, a postpartum doula in your home helping to make snacks and make sure that you’re drinking water and keeping up with meals, mothers often forget to eat. They’re so focused on trying to rest and feed baby. They may have other children at home to feed, and they don’t care for themselves.

And we’ve gotten so far away from community where mom and aunts and cousins and sisters would all come and help make sure that you’re nourished. That’s not really so much a think anymore. In pockets across the country, people are still doing this, but as a majority, we’re not part of communities anymore. And so you’re right. It’s hard to focus on yourself when you’re caring for a newborn. And we have so many postpartum complications in the US, and I think some of them could be solved completely with good nutrition.

Yes. And there are so many jokes about just satisfying whatever pregnancy cravings you have, or those first meals after you have a baby and not being nutrient dense and kind of the fast food cravings people may have, and so really understanding some important books related to postnatal nutrition. I love The First Forty Days and anything by – Lily has a lot of gestational diabetes. Lily Nichols is an amazing resource. She also has some pregnancy- related nutrition books.

Yeah, and I encourage folks to pick up anything that you can while you’re pregnant, right, so you can plan for your postpartum recovery. Because it’s hard to then catch up.

Yes, exactly. What are your tips for our listeners who are looking at planning for their postpartum phase and how to get some good nutrition in those meals, whether they’re asking for food from friends and families from meal trains and how to ask for the right things rather than, say, a casserole?

Right. Well, and a casserole is not a bad idea, as well, if it is nutritionally balanced. If it’s mostly cheese and bread, it’s probably not going to give you the desired outcome. But we do like to tell our clients that work with my agency, Michigan Family Doulas – try to focus on warm foods. Soups are amazing, especially if they’re packing with vegetables and beans and other things. You can even put chicken and that kind of thing in soups and get a really good nutrient profile in something that’s fairly easy. Casseroles are great, too, if we’re talking about including some phytonutrients, which is going to be plant-based nutrition. Keeping it simple, keeping it easy is important. Things that you can put away and freeze and pull them out and reheat them easily are tips that I have. If you’re having cravings for things, think about why that might be. Usually, the human body has cravings because it’s lacking in some sort of nutrient. So really focusing on phytonutrients, which are plant-based, warm foods, of course, and getting enough fats, enough carbs, enough protein during that postpartum recovery time. And it’s tricky to know what that means, right? Like, you go to Google and ask how much do I need, and you might get six different answers. So that’s a tricky piece.

It is. And as doulas, of course, we have our finger on the pulse for all of the experts that we can refer our clients to, and that could be functional medicine doctors or nutritionists, dieticians. We try to look at even some healthy meal delivery services. I know there are some in your area in southeast Michigan. I’ve ordered for friends who had babies and had some healthy meals delivered to them.

And that’s a wonderful thing. We definitely have more options here than we ever have. I think that’s the case across the country, which I love. I think that a lot of Americans have realized that there’s a problem with the way we eat and the food that’s available to us, and a lot of us are making changes already, which is awesome. It can only help with postpartum recovery, the more people that start realizing, hey, our food supply isn’t that great. What we normally eat really isn’t healthy. Maybe I’ll get some different options and change my diet a little, and I think that can only help this whole process, right? And it can only help with our statistics about postpartum complications.

Right. And what are your tips for listeners who are breastfeeding or pumping?

When you are breastfeeding, your body requires an extra 300 to 500 calories a day. That can be something as simple as a half a sandwich and a handful of grapes. Simple things, right? So we encourage our clients and I encourage those we work with to, again, even if you are eating extra calories, be mindful of what those calories are. I think mindful eating is really important. Ask for help, right? If it’s the middle of recovery, I’m two weeks in, there’s nothing in my house to eat and I can’t cook for myself – the typical conversation we have in postpartum. Where’s my extra pair of hands? I encourage folks to investigate what’s in your area. Investigate some of those meal delivery services in the area. Or postpartum doulas will come and help do some of that for you. Make snacks while they’re there. If you have a soup recipe or something you want us to put together, your doula can do that for you. So there’s a lot more options now than ever before for getting these needs met, whether you’re breastfeeding or you’re not.

Exactly. Yeah, and even with grocery delivery service. I wish that was a thing when I had my kids.

Oh, my gosh, yes, for sure. I think about that now, and I’m like, how did we make it work in the middle of postpartum recovery? I’ve got to the grocery store with my brand new newborn. Times have changed, so we have more options available to us now, which I’m so grateful for.

Exactly. In my early days as a postpartum doula, I used to run errands for my clients. Go grocery shopping, the butcher, and that way they could stay home and focus on healing and feeding their baby.

For sure.

Now, it’s not really even a needed service, as you can get your groceries delivered.

That’s right. Now, they don’t always do a perfect job in getting the things that you ask for, but I tell you what, it’s a heck of a lot better than what it used to be.

Totally. Jodi, you mentioned warming foods and teas and so on. That really, again, is focused on those traditional, especially Malaysian, cultures’ focus on pregnancy being a warm state and the shock after you deliver and your body being in a cold state and needing to be warmed and eating and drinking warming foods and teas and so on. Again, in our culture, it isn’t something that is so focused on, and in so many traditional cultures, families are focusing on caring for the baby and mothering the mother and making sure she is getting rest and proper nutrition so she can then be the best parent for the rest of the family, as well as baby. And I feel like, again, not only nutrition, but also making sure that you’re drinking water or healthy teas and so on. So where does hydration play into postnatal recovery and certainly breastfeeding or pumping?

This is a vital piece of recovery. You know, you are going to be getting rid of all the extra fluids that your body kind of packed on the end of your pregnancy, and just the normal fluid accumulation that we get when we’re gestating. So that’s all going to be happening. I encourage people to keep drinking, even though they feel like maybe they have some swelling going on or they have some extra water weight. We still encourage fluids all day, every day. In fact, I’ll never forget this. My first daughter was born 25 years ago, and I was so thirsty, it was the only thing I could think of, those first few weeks. I was so thirsty. And we forget that, right? That’s an important piece. So I always recommend that you not just sip on water, but electrolytes.

Exactly. Coconut water or electrolyte drinks. I’m a fan of electrolytes for labor, but as you mentioned, also the postnatal recovery phase.

Yeah, for sure. And I like electrolytes that don’t have sugar in them because it can be a lot of extra sugar in some of those premade mixes. I like to stick to the ones that are salt-based only with no sugar in them. And then eat some fruit or other healthy things that give you the sugar.

Great tips. So what else are you seeing with your postpartum doulas and how they’re able to help their families adapt to this change, whether it’s baby one or baby five?

Well, I think that some of the biggest things that we are doing as doulas here, really, are obviously supporting folks, no matter what their parenting styles are, no matter what their choices are, no matter whether it’s one baby or five, like you mentioned. Just helping everybody to get rest, to get nourishment, to have somebody there to help with basic things in the early days. And then as folks transition to getting into parenting and getting into their groove, we’re just there to support their choices, make sure that they stay rested, be a sounding board for these families or a place that they can ask questions and get referrals to other services. You know, we really want to be the go-to person for these families when they have an issue or they’re feeling stressed, or God forbit, they’re showing signs of postpartum mood and anxiety disorders. We want to be there on the front lines. That’s really our focus here.

Exactly. And you mentioned rest multiple times. Your agency, similar to mine, does offer overnight postpartum doula support and newborn care specialists, so let’s touch on that for our listeners who haven’t really known that was an option for them.

Yeah. So we do provide overnight care. I would say that we – I wouldn’t say it’s exclusive, that we just provide overnight care, but it’s definitely more than 75% of the care that we provide is overnight because everyone is exhausted. And I don’t know what we’re doing right now outside of growing babies and giving birth and all of that. As a society, we must be doing something, that we’re coming into birth already exhausted. So people have an infant, and then we’re playing catch-up. So it’s not just the normal fatigue. It’s more of an extreme, everybody’s stressed. Everyone is exhausted. And so we’re really trying to focus on helping people overcome that because you can’t be a good parent if you’re so fatigued you can’t keep your eyes open. So we really focus on that quite heavily. And I’m going to say about 90 to 93% of the time – I’m a numbers person – so 90 to 93% of the time, our families will have a few overnight visits or plan for maybe just a short-term care plan with us, and then they almost always ask us to stay on. So I think when folks get a taste of what it’s like to have a newborn but also sleep, they’re like, oh, my goodness, you can’t leave.

Yeah, it’s priceless. And for partners who need to return to work right away, then it is helpful for them to be at the capacity they were. Say they’re a physician and need to return two days after the baby’s born, and they’re working long shifts, so they can’t help with diaper changes and need to get a full night’s sleep. So we work with a lot of families where the partner is back at work or traveling for work. Or, say, an athlete, for example, and may not even be around. It’s hard to plan with certain schedules, whether it’s military or with athletes.

We find the exact same thing, as well, here in southeast Michigan. We do work with a couple of the sports teams in the area, and lots and lots of physicians. We’re finding the exact same thing. It’s hard when you’re a team, right? It’s hard when you just gave birth, but you and your partner both can stay home for a little while. That’s hard. And then you take one of the partners away and say, okay, now you got to go back to work, and everything is as normal. It’s almost debilitating for some families, and so I’m really grateful to be doing the work that I’m doing, that my agency is doing. I’m grateful to be able to have even just a little impact on communities. And if I’m being honest, it stems from the fact that I didn’t have any of this when I had my children.

Right. Yeah, I mean, postpartum doulas and newborn care specialists were not a thing, and if there were postpartum doulas, they mainly did daytime support. Short daytime shifts, helping with household tasks. So it’s definitely changed quite a bit since we both got into this field, and with insurance and employer benefit plans covering more and more, and health savings and flex spending going from only birth doulas to also identifying postpartum doulas as a need. That’s been very helpful.

It’s wonderful. We get a lot of clients now that are using employer provided benefits, which is amazing. It’s a step in the right direction. It’s not a cure all. It’s not even a band aid, if I’m being honest. Maybe this is a backward analogy, but we’re using a firehose to put out a match with some things. This is the opposite. We have a forest fire. We’re trying to use a little bucket that we might have on the beach. So yes, it’s helpful. It’s a step. It’s something. And I still feel like we have so much work to do.

Yes. And in your area, especially, people are moving to southeast Michigan, to Detroit area, without the family ties and potentially friends around. So they don’t have any support. They move for work or to get into a more affordable city, whatever their reason, and they’re feeling very isolated, and the postnatal time is isolating, as it is. If you don’t have family to help, especially when we’re in a childcare crisis, a postpartum doula or a newborn care specialist can help fill in some of the gaps.

Absolutely. I think one little thing that is concerning to me is a lot of families here recently have said that they’re feeling pressure from family – mothers, mothers-in-law, extended family – they’ll make comments about, why would you have a doula? Why on earth would you have doula support? That’s just silly. You should take care of your own baby. I mean, we did. And that kind of pressure and those kinds of comments are really hurtful for some of these people who really genuinely need somebody. They really need help. And then they’re feeling guilty for asking for help. We’re hearing that quite a bit lately, and I’m not quite sure what to do about it.

That is so true. It’s like, just don’t complain and focus on being a mom, but there’s just so much more in today’s society. I feel like it’s hard to turn off work. I mean, technology can be amazing, but I think that is a big part of the depletion and the tired feeling that families have even before pregnancy and the early newborn phase. We’re just so locked in, and it’s hard to turn off work. I see clients at a birth, and they’re checking their work emails and they’re getting texts. There used to be, pre all of this cell phones and technology and emails, you would go to work and do your work, and you could turn it off. There’s not a way to really fully do that now in most fields.

For sure. Which is funny for me to think of. It just makes me want to laugh, if I think about myself in labor, giving birth to my children – if I had given even one thought to my employer, I would have been upset. I feel bad for families that have to do that now. It has changed, you’re right. It’s been another factor, I think, that’s added stress.

Exactly. Especially if you deliver early and you had planned everything for maternity leave and tried to go as long as possible to optimize your leave, and then all of a sudden, there are all of these unfinished tasks. That’s what I would see. It’s like, oh, no, I need to email, and this needs to be done. You really need to focus on your birth and early parenting, but again, some things are out of our control.

And I think people feel a lot of pressure at work or just a lot of pressure to make enough money to make ends meet. You know, it’s extra stressors all the way around.

Right. And with the rising costs of everything, for childcare and food, gas, all of the things – it is stressful for families. Luckily, as we mentioned, there are different ways to pay for support. Also, certainly with healthy meals and nutrition, registering for services instead of things, like all of those onesies and the fancy stroller – you could register for a doula and ask for a healthy meal delivery service or gift cards to your favorite restaurants, a housekeeper – things that will make your life easier.

Yeah, and it’s hard to know where to direct your money, but you’re right, all the things is not the place to spend because they won’t help you when you’re exhausted. They won’t help you unplug and have a nap or have a shower or do the things that you need to, to make yourself feel normal, to feel like, okay, yes, there’s some semblance of my old life here. And so it’s just, I think, ultimately, it’s all about all this extra stress. It’s hard to know what direction to look, you know, and how to narrow down the options. Hopefully folks hear us both say, your options are here. We have teams full of them, and by that I mean doulas that can come and help and take care of all of these different facets of your early parenting. And I know for us, we sometimes stay with clients throughout the first year. Not just a two week thing and then you’re on your own; we do provide a lot more care than that. It sounds like you guys do, as well.

We do work through the first year, as well, and I know some doulas, depending on the training organization, focus more on the first six to eight weeks and that recovery phase. It just depends on which professional you’re choosing, what their philosophy is. So look into that. At Gold Coast, we have some families that have a lot of support initially, and they hire us during times that the partner is traveling or they’re transitioning back to work and want to optimize their rest. There are so many different scenarios.

Absolutely. I’m just thrilled by the progress that we’ve made as doulas. Back in 1999 when I started this work, I spent more time telling people what a doula was than I did actually doing doula work.

You’re definitely one of the OGs!

That’s right! We’ve come a long way because now most people do know what doulas are. Not so much on the postpartum side, so we’ve got some work to do there, but every now and again, I still run into people who don’t have any clue what a doula even is. So now it’s fun for me to be like, oh, this is something that you must know about. I’m just really glad that we have come as far as we have. I also, in the same breath, feel like we have so much farther to go.

We do, yes. I agree. I could talk to you forever, and our conversation has gone into many different directions, but I would love your top snacks for our postnatal listeners who are trying to avoid that depletion and nourish themselves. What are you giving postpartum clients or what are you suggesting with your team of doulas, other than the fruits you mentioned earlier?

Yeah, I mean, anything like that, like fruit that you can cut up and put in the fridge so you can quickly grab them and snack on them. If you can tolerate gluten, making sandwiches. Of course, there’s lots of different options to make sandwiches with. You can certainly do wraps and that kind of thing. Stuff that’s easy to reach in the fridge and grab is essential, so even cut vegetables. Maybe you could make those soups, a couple of soups, and put individual bowls in the fridge so that you can then pull them out, pop them in the microwave quickly, and then you have a warm, nourishing meal that you can sit and sip on or have little bites of while you’re rocking baby. But easy, quick, convenient things are essential.

I like to encourage protein, so Greek yogurt is a really great thing to have on hand if you can tolerate that. There are nondairy versions of Greek yogurt out there now that don’t taste too bad. Hard boiled eggs are a great go-to. Cut fruit and vegetables. Cheese sticks or cut pieces of cheese if you can tolerate dairy. There are a lot of options, but some of this does require some forethought and/or hiring a doula.

Excellent tips, Jodi! Thank you so much! How can our listeners find Michigan Family Doulas?

We are on social @michiganfamilydoulas. We’d love to see you on Instagram or Facebook. You can also find me. I am the host of a podcast called Tea with Jodi. We talk a little bit more in-depth about some of these political issues and things going on in the birth world. And of course, you can find us at michiganfamilydouals.com.

Excellent. Thank you so much!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Michigan Family Doulas

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

A Postpartum Doula’s Role in Nourishing the Mother: Podcast Episode #245 Read More »

Surrogacy Simplified: Podcast Episode #244

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Jessie Jaskulsky discuss the types of surrogacy and options for families in this informative Ask the Doulas episode. Jessie also gives her top tips for families who are considering surrogacy. Jessi owns Surrogacy Simplified.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Jessie Jaskulsky of Surrogacy Simplified today. We are going to talk all things surrogacy. I’d like to share a bit about her background. After a devastating 22-week pregnancy loss that led to secondary infertility, Jessie spent years trying to complete her family and ultimately had both of her daughters through surrogacy. Through Jessie’s journey to becoming a mom, she felt as if there was an obstacle at every turn. Jessie founded Surrogacy Simplified, a boutique surrogacy consulting and white glove concierge that helps intended parents start or complete their family through the selfless gift of surrogacy. Jessie takes care of all of the details, big and small, allowing her clients to truly enjoy this pathway to parenthood.

Welcome, Jessie!

Thanks for having me!

So happy to have you on! I would love to begin with a bit about the definitions, the types of surrogacy, if you wouldn’t mind explaining that to our audience who may not be as familiar.

Absolutely. It’s interesting because the way the terms are used has even changed from the birth of my oldest daughter to now. I’ll get into that a little bit. Gestational carrier is the most common surrogacy arrangement in the United States, and that is when the surrogate is using an embryo that does not have any biological connection to them. So the egg would be from the intended mother or a donor egg, and the sperm from the intended father or donor sperm. Traditional surrogacy is when the surrogate – it’s the surrogate’s biological egg and the intended father or donor’s sperm. When I first was expecting my oldest through surrogacy, it was important for me that people used the term gestational carrier instead of surrogate because I wanted them to know that my daughter had the biological connection to me. But now, over the past couple of years, surrogacy has become so much more talked about and widespread that people sort of use the terms gestational carrier and surrogate interchangeably, which is interesting. It hasn’t been that much time, but it has been a shift over the past few years.

Yes, that is interesting, and I don’t think that it’s talked about enough. I do feel like, whether it’s reality tv or the media, there is more information. I mean, even thinking of some of the Kardashians and their journey and how they highlighted their own experiences and struggles with secondary infertility.

Right. And interestingly, traditional surrogacy is not legal in a lot of states. Gestational surrogacy is legal in 47 of the 50.

Interesting. Yes, I know Michigan is working on legislation, but we’re not quite there yet.

Yes, I’m crossing my fingers that by the end of this year, we are having a different conversation.

Same! As far as finding a surrogate, let’s talk about that process. You know, sometimes it could be a family member or a friend who then carries. I know a lot of doulas have a love for everything pregnancy, birth, and baby, and I have friends who have been surrogates, not for their own personal clients, but yes, have been matched with agencies and so on.

That’s so beautiful! Yes, there’s different ways to find a surrogate. One way would be asking a member of your community, whether that’s a family member or a friend or even going to social media. Some people want to keep it more private, and then there are others who share their story. I actually have a client right now where she’s shared a little bit of her story on her Facebook status, and a friend of a friend – people shared it, and then she was connected to somebody that way. Believe it or not, that does happen. That’s one way, and I would say the biggest pro of that would be saving the cost of using an agency to help you match.

If you do not have anybody that you think would come forward to carry for you, using an agency is a very common method, as well, and the agency would help recruit and find a surrogate that matches some of the things that you’re looking for.

More recently, there have been these sort of intermediaries that pop up. One that comes to mind is Nodal. You can think of it like a dating site, but it’s between gestational carriers and intended parents where they can kind of connect. It’s not free, but compared to an agency fee, it’s less expensive. So it’s a middle ground in terms of cost.

I love it. That is an excellent idea! So how did you get into this work? Obviously, you have your personal experience, but to start a business and pivot in that way is a big move. I’m interested to hear what led you to starting Surrogacy Simplified and how your business is unique and maybe even collaborates with agencies since you do so much of the concierge work for clients.

Yes. I love that. Thank you. So really, when I went through the process twice, I felt like it was just very, very complicated. And there should be lots of steps involved. I mean, this is somebody else carrying your baby. But with that being said, my first journey was with an agency, and my second one was totally independent, meaning I found somebody and I managed the process on my own. Both times, I felt like the amount of hours my husband and I spent in the evenings kind of project managing the journey – we liked it, but I felt like for somebody else, I just wanted to make it less complicated for them. I was previously a speech pathologist and just felt so driven to want to help other people that have gone through something similar to me. Last year, I just did a complete career pivot and opened my doors and have never looked back. It’s just been so incredibly fulfilling.

I love that! As far as the process of working with you, what would that look like?

Yes, I have two buckets of independent parents that I support. Those going on that independent journey that we discussed who might know somebody who’s willing to carry for them – I case manage the entire journey, meaning I connect them with their attorneys, their psychologists, the escrow, the health insurance, the fertility clinic. In addition to all of those logistics, I also wanted to feel like this warm hug, a friend, somebody they can really trust who’s gone through it personally who they can text questions to who is really going to make the process smooth and enjoyable for them.

For those who need an agency, I’m going to work with them and find out their priorities, whether it’s cost, trying to match, all the different things, and help them find an agency that best suits their needs. And then the agency is going to work on matching them and doing some of that case management I described, and I’m going to work on all of the little details to make sure that they have a really incredible journey and everything’s taken care of, big and small.

Excellent. So Jessie, I’m sure that you’re much different than an agency with the concierge aspect if, say, the family is looking to have a birth doula supporting the labor journey for the surrogate or looking for day or overnight newborn care, for example. You know the experts in each area and are able to match, correct?

Absolutely, yeah, and I love offering a doula to the carrier because it’s just another person for the delivery who’s really there to support them and make sure that the delivery is just exactly how they envisioned it.

And how do you work with budgets? Are there any benefit packages that you’re able to draw from?

Yes, that’s one of the first questions that we’ll ask the families, and based on that, we will decide what’s the best path for them. Sometimes it’s applying for grants or financing. Insurance is getting a little bit better, but a lot of it doesn’t cover it, unfortunately. But specific to using a doula, I do think that some of our surrogates might be eligible for that, as well, which is great.

Yes. Again, depending on benefits or the state they’re in. Medicaid covers doulas in many states. Fascinating. As far as your top tips for our listeners when they are looking into surrogacy as an option for their family, what are your favorites?

I have a few. I would say being patient with the process. I know it’s really hard. I’m sure a lot of people listening might already have a child, but now they’re looking to complete their family. I, too, struggled with secondary infertility. And being patient is so hard when you just feel like your family’s not complete. But I would say to anticipate the surrogacy process to be a little bit long. That way, you know what you’re getting yourself into. I’d say an average is probably 8 to 24 months, start to finish. I also suggest thinking about the type of relationship you’d want to have with your surrogate, and the reason I think that’s important to consider in the beginning is that way when you go to match, you meet with someone who’s on the same page with you, and then you’re in alignment and you have this really incredible journey because you’ve clearly communicated what you were hoping to get out of it and you met somebody accordingly.

I can give an example. For me, I had chosen surrogacy after a late pregnancy loss, and it was recommended – it caused me secondary infertility, and I had just been coming from this place of a little bit of trauma, and I knew I needed a surrogate that was wanting to have a friendship and open communication because I had gone through this loss, and I knew if I hadn’t talked to my surrogate for a week or two, it would just create anxiety. So I shared that I was looking for a friendship, and both times – I think since I laid out my expectations so clearly in the beginning, my husband and I had these two really amazing relationships with the surrogate and her family.

I love that. It definitely is such a unique situation. I’m sure some of your families want no contact, and others, again, want that emotional connection that you would have with, say, a doula, for example.

Right. Exactly.

So as far as understanding laws, how does one navigate it without an expert like yourself? Each state is so different, and understanding how to follow guidelines is so important, I’m sure, in this process.

Absolutely. I think it’s helpful to have a general understanding of the state you live in, but at the end of the day, you’re following the law where the baby is going to be born and where the surrogate lives. So anyone listening that lives in Michigan, for example, where you’re based, even though it’s not currently surrogacy friendly, if you’re able to find a surrogate in a different state, it’s not like you’re not able to move forward with surrogacy. And then you would speak to the attorneys to learn the details in whichever state that the surrogate’s living in.

Exactly. So Jessie, what would you say the best explanation for – you know, I guess what I’m trying to get across is I feel like secondary infertility is not discussed enough, and it’s important to understand all of the family’s options. So are you utilizing resources as you’re talking to families who are struggling? Are there support groups? How does one navigate this?

Absolutely. I know for me with my secondary infertility, I was sort of in this gray area where the doctors were like, yeah, you can keep trying, or we can move to surrogacy. And I had wanted that black and white answer and would have loved a support group to talk about this with. There’s actually somebody that I’ve connected with that I would recommend people can check out. Her Instagram handle is @holdingboth, and she does have support groups specific for secondary infertility.

And I would think families who’ve gone through a lengthy process of IVF, they’re exhausted physically, mentally, and they still want this baby, and so understanding that they have more options outside of, say, adoption is important. Spreading the awareness is key.

Absolutely.

As far as matching with a surrogate, there would obviously be some physical and mental aspects related to being a good candidate if someone’s interested in being a surrogate themselves. How does that process work?

Yes. So once you’ve identified a surrogate, the first step is that the surrogate collects her medical records, and if she’s working with someone like myself or an agency, they’re helped along the way with this part of the process. The records are sent to the fertility clinic for an initial review of her prenatal and delivery records to make sure everything looks okay. Beyond that, she’s also evaluated at the fertility clinic. So there’s sort of this physical evaluation that takes place. There is also a psychological component where, interestingly, the intended parents are evaluated. The GC and her spouse are evaluated. And then there’s, depending on the state, but I highly recommend, there is a group session that occurs where the psychologist leads a session where she talks about issues and how they would handle them to just put everything out there in the beginning and create this harmonious relationship.

And then there’s certainly a lot in the news about getting surrogates and families on the same page with, say, medical issues that may arise with the baby. Can you speak a bit to that concern that families may have if the surrogate has different wishes than they do?

Yes. There’s a few things that come to mind. First is that in your legal contract, you would talk about some of these issues and how you handle them. It would be written out in a legal contract. Secondary to that, when you’re matching, I would encourage families to think about some of these topics and talk about them up front to make sure you match accordingly. An example of that is vaccinations and worst case scenario is terminations if something were to be medically wrong or life altering for the baby. Those are just two examples, but however you feel about whatever the topic is, you bring it up to your surrogate, even though it feels uncomfortable to have that discussion in the beginning. I really recommend it because that way you don’t fall in love with somebody and have paid for their evaluation and their psychological evaluation, paid for the attorneys, and then found out you’re not going to agree because you won’t be able to get past the legal phase.

Yes. And then of course every state has different laws on termination in pregnancy, so needing to follow those laws and make sure that you’ve had that open discussion. As with anything related to pregnancy and early parenting, being on the same page, especially with surrogacy, I feel, is so important.

Absolutely. I joke when I’m with my intended parents that anything you don’t want to talk about at Thanksgiving with your extended family, these are the topics to bring up when you’re matched because it’s going to come up on your legal contracts, so you have to just get it over with, and better to get it out in the beginning before any money’s been spent because I try to be really conscious of how expensive the process is and making sure you move forward with somebody that you’re really going to be on the same page with.

Exactly. And then certainly if there are multiples, then there are totally different considerations with more than one baby.

Yes, absolutely. Both singles and multiples would be great with a doula, but especially with twins, they would really benefit from using a doula.

Absolutely. So Jessie, how long do you follow the families that hire you? Are you working with them a couple of months after baby or babies are born? Or when does that journey begin and end, essentially?

I like to call it end to end. So in the beginning when they’re thinking about surrogacy all the way to when the baby is born. My preference is to be with them through the fourth trimester, just so I can check in with them, if they need a doula, if they need a night nurse. I can be coordinating that on their behalf because they’re going to be tired, and I want to take care of everything for them so they can just focus on baby.

And do families ever hire you in that fourth trimester, that postnatal recovery phase, in just wanting some extra support and knowing that you are the expert? Or is it mainly in pregnancy?

I would say it’s typically in the way that my services work that they retain me for about 18 to 24 months, so best case scenario, the minute they decide they’re going to go through surrogacy, we can partner together. I can also just educate them on all of the things to know and then stay with them through the fourth trimester because it’s such a special time, and I want to make sure they have everything that they need.

It is. So you’re supporting the family after the surrogate delivers. What kind of support do you offer with the family to potentially pay for add-ons to support the surrogate?

Yes, if there was anything that the surrogate needed, I would help them coordinate that, whether it’s food, whether they need doula care, anything that might make them recovery and help with their recovery, I’m happy to coordinate. And I would just be setting it up on their behalf, and the intended parents would be paying for those expenses.

How fascinating. So is there anything else that you would like to cover that we didn’t address, Jessie?

I think we covered so many important things. I would let listeners know that I offer a complimentary consultation, whether they want to work with my directly or just learn about surrogacy. I’m happy to help them out, and they can get to that directly on my website, which is surrogacysimplified.com.

And you’re also active on Instagram?

Yes, @surrogacysimplified. I try to post a combination of informative, lightheartedness, so people can learn a lot that way, as well.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being on Ask the Doulas! We’ll have to have you back on when Michigan makes some changes here, hopefully very soon!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Surrogacy Simplified

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Surrogacy Simplified: Podcast Episode #244 Read More »

Reimagining Care for New Moms with Alexandra Francis: Podcast Episode #243

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Alexandra Francis discuss postpartum recovery traditions worldwide and the need for holistic postpartum support models like Mama Haven. Alexandra also owns Our Hummingbird.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to bring you Alexandra Francis. Alexandra is the owner and founder of Our Hummingbird, and she has so much information to share with us related to the postpartum revolution. Welcome, Alexandra!

Thank you for having me!

So happy to have you here. I’d love to have you fill our audience in about your personal motherhood journey, as well as why you decided to professionally work with women in the childbearing years.

I’ve given birth to seven children, and the first three children, I gave birth to in the hospital. It was a bit of an antenatal, but I don’t feel that it really prepared me for the birth that was going to happen, and I felt very much at the mercy of the midwives and the whole system and how it runs and so on. And after having an unfortunate experience with the first birth, I had a postpartum hemorrhage. Then I was managed the second and third time. It was really sad for me, because I really wanted a water birth, but I didn’t get one. And with the fourth baby, I went to the hospital, and the thing was, I had such a terrible experience, actually, that I left the hospital in labor. I came home, and a friend of mine said, look, I’ll get you a doula and I’ll pay for her, and then you’ll be all right. You’ll be able to have the baby. That was the first time I’d ever heard that word, doula. And when I called the doula and told her about my experience, she said, oh, yeah, I would honor your birth plan. That’s the first time anyone had ever spoken to me like that. I was like, wow. And she said, why aren’t you having a home birth? And I was like, home birth? What’s that? I’d never been told about a home birth before. And I told her that I was told that I would die. I’m going to bleed to death. And I’m going to die, and the baby’s going to die. That’s why I can’t have this baby at home. I have to be in the hospital. She said, well, contact the community midwives. And I was like, community midwives? Who are they?

They’re the midwives who come out to homebirths. I’d not heard of them at all. And through this experience and finding a likeminded midwife – she honored my birth plan, and she really protected me, which meant that my rights were upheld and the way that I wanted birth, I got to do it. It was so much more beautiful than the other three times. I said, you know what, after this, I’ll never go back to hospital again. I had my fifth baby at home, and it was a water birth.

Exactly as you wanted! And I do agree, no matter where you live, if you don’t know your options, you’re so limited in your choices. Learning about doulas and home birth and community midwives later on changed your path in the future and for that particular birth.

That’s right. And I’m so glad that I did learn about this because it really did change the course of the future of the way that I birthed. After the fifth time – on the fifth time, I’d even learned about HypnoBirthing this time, so I really had the birth down now. At this point, I felt a bit like a pro, you know? And yet all the things that went really beautiful in the birth, they went beautiful because of me and the way that I prepared, and the things that went wrong, they went wrong because of the interference of the midwife. So after that I was like, you know what, I’m not going to have a midwife, if I ever get pregnant again, which I actually thought that I wouldn’t. With my sixth baby, it was just me and the dad, so we had an unassisted birth. I went to Ecuador and gave birth to my daughter there, and that was the first time I found out about the 40 days postpartum. Have you heard about this before?

Yes. Depending on the culture and the traditions – certainly Malaysian and Chinese culture – yes, they take it very seriously of that warming period, caring for the mother, and it’s all about bonding with baby and the village members and family members all help with the newborn care, household tasks, caring for the siblings, in some of the ways that a postpartum doula does.

Yes. Yes! All of that. And with my other babies, I never had that experience. And in actual fact, I remembered with the third child just being so focused on being able to fit into my jeans and get to the supermarket, and I remember pushing the baby in the trolley and he’s newborn and everyone’s looking at the baby like, oh, wow, he’s so small. He’s newborn. And I’m like, yeah. And they were like, wow, you’re such a superwoman. And that was almost the standard that I felt that I had to meet, this superwoman that’s back in her jeans and back to doing all the things that mums do. And I really felt that.

Yes, there’s so much pressure certainly in the US, in the UK. And in other countries, it’s all about mothering the mother and taking that time and family members will fly in and stay for 30 to 40 days and just care for the entire family, but especially the mother.

So yeah, this was just a different experience for me, being in Ecuador and being able to have that time, which I’d never, never had before. It slows everything down. I even got to do elimination communication with my baby, so literally from the time she was born, she was potty training. And potty training, she didn’t really need diapers, and she never did a poo in a nappy ever. It was just this whole brand new experience for me. And I felt almost kind of robbed, you know, with the last babies and the other experiences. I really felt it in my system, just how different that was, having the other children in that way and not getting that much-needed support and time to just really bond with my baby.

Right. So it sounds like that is what led you to Mama Haven and your work there?

It was actually following the birth of the seventh child. It was because I’d still never experienced a doula, but after the sixth baby, that’s when I really started to do the work. I started to be with other women and be in birth and witnessing these babies being born and giving the support to the women and holding their rights, and really, what I feel that my role was is just saying, like, you can. It was hearing the woman, her birth plan, her heart’s desire, the way that she wanted to birth and being like, yeah, you can do that. And I feel that my work is more around helping the mother to really lean into her intuition, to be able to listen to her body and take the cues from her body, to listen to her baby, and to follow that and to trust that and to know that if she feels something, that she can ask for help if she feels that she needs support. She can ask for it. But not to intervene, rather, but more to hold that space and allow the birth to unfold in its own time, ever so gently and naturally. So I got to witness birth in this very beautiful, peaceful, loving way.

Beautiful. So tell us a bit more about Mama Haven.

Okay. So the first time I got to experience a doula for myself was after the seventh baby. When I gave birth to him, the girl came from California. Basically, she did an exchange with me. She came to learn how to be a postpartum doula by being my doula, and I was training her on the job, and that’s how it happened. And with having her, it was like another level because I really got to fully immerse myself in the mother-baby relationship and being in the energy with the baby and just learning all the baby’s cues. It’s similar to like before, you learn like a telepathy with the baby. I got that through the elimination communication, but this time, it was just by being so present, by having all of my needs met. She fed me. I taught her how to massage my body, showed her where aches and pains were. I had a slight labial graze, so I taught her how to treat that and to care for it and how to wrap me and do all these things. It was just out of this world, really. I just got to look at the baby, be with him. I only had to think about breastfeeding. I didn’t have to think about anything else. She really had it covered.

And it was from this experience, having such a deep immersion with my own baby that actually when the end of the 40 days came, I really felt like, oh, my word, we’ve been in such a protective bubble that I felt almost like the world was such a harsh place for my son, and I wasn’t ready to break out of the 40 days. I actually ended up having another month, not with a doula, but just me and the baby, and I lived in a house with another woman who’d also just had a baby, so we were both postpartum together. I was a little bit ahead of her. So we were able to support each other and be there for each other, eat together, and things like that, and it was just really beautiful.

And through having that experience, I felt like all moms should be able to have this if they so choose. I mean, a lot of moms don’t even know. They don’t even know that it’s an option, especially here in the UK. Most of the girls who are going to the hospital even today, their focus is, when can I go home, and then going to the local shopping center. And I find that so bizarre, that that was my experience in 2001, and it’s still the mentality in this country today. Unless you’re, say, from a Muslim family or where the family members come around, like you said, and really get around the woman and support her and hold her in those 40 days, but the culture in Britain is just not there yet. So there has to be some work done first and foremost to raise the awareness to allow moms to know what can be possible, to help them to see how beneficial it is for them just to slow it down.

And in England, there’s massive issues around breastfeeding, for example. And women might try, and if they don’t get it as quick as they need to be able to leave hospital, they’re almost prompted to give formula. It’s like, okay, if I give the child the bottle, then I can get out and tick that box off. So it takes time sometimes, doesn’t it? You’ve just got to almost like stop and be still and be relaxed and let it happen. But if you feel stressed and you’re trying to think about forcing it to happen, or you think, oh, what’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with my nipples? What’s wrong with my baby? It can kind of end up with a bit of a downward spiral, and that can be impacted a lot by the stress and whatnot.

So first and foremost, to just raise the awareness, to let moms know that they can slow down. The Mama Haven, really what it’s doing is giving moms an opportunity to have a home. In the Mama Haven home, the woman will have care that’s wraparound, so she’d have care 24/7, just the way that I did. And the women want to train how to become postpartum doulas, so what better way to have the training than to be in the Mama Haven? The students can be there, alongside the mamas, and they can then observe the mamas. They can talk and get to know them and then see what their needs are and then understand to meet the needs when they emerge. And then I can be there to offer that supervision and the guidance, but it’s more like it can happen quietly and organically through building those relationships and really, like I said, slowing everything down and observing.

So the plan is to be able to cook and give meals to these women, so the food is very nutrient-dense, what the mother may be calling for at that time, to build the good supply of breastmilk and keep the mom feeling well-fed and feeling good and energized. Then she can also rest. Then she can have her emotional needs met because we can be there to listen. I found that instrumental, actually. That was a huge part of it, just for myself, processing my birth and some of the things around being alone in a foreign country and having other family members around me at that time, I got to just cry about it. She’d just hold the space and let that happen and I didn’t feel judged or anything. And it was okay. Feelings come up and they go, and we don’t necessarily have to make more about it. It’s just, this is it. This is natural. It’s a process. We just allow for that process to unfold. So this is another big thing that would be on hand for those mothers. Then the hands-on care, like the massages and the wrapping and things like that, as and where the mother needs. There’ll be people on hand to do that right around the clock, to provide that care and give that nourishment.

So are you doing the Bengkung method, or what is your preferring wrapping method?

I do the belly binding with massage and the Rebozo, actually, the Mexican one. I got to learn this ceremony called the closing of the bones.

Yes, I learned that as well. I took a training, a Zulu doula training and learned that method, but I’ve also been trained in Bengkung belly binding, the Malaysian way.

Okay, I’ve not done the Malaysian one. I did the other one, and it’s so good, isn’t it, to be able to hold the woman. Have you had it done to yourself as well?

Yes, during the training. It was amazing. I was not postpartum, though.

Yeah, so when you are postpartum, in that area – I mean, I can speak for experience that it feels vulnerable, almost. It almost feels like the top half of my body is going to fall off of the bottom half of my body. It’s a really weird sensation. And somehow, when you get wrapped, it’s like it keeps you together, you know? It holds you up.

Agreed, because your organs are going back into place or shifting after you deliver. It makes complete sense. And again, going from that warm state to a cold state and the benefits of warming foods and nutrient dense foods, as you mentioned, and just slowing things down and that care. It’s so important.

I even offer the closing bones ceremonies to women, not necessarily in their 40 days postpartum, and I’ve found that they’re instrumental for women literally at any time in their life. I did one for mother and daughter. They were side by side. And the daughter was 30-something years old, and the mother received her first closing bones ceremony, and the daughter received one. For her, it was closing the dependence that the mother had on her and closing that down, opening her up to be able to receive her own children.

Beautiful!

It was so powerful.

It’s such important work. You are definitely changing the community. So you have one location in the UK; is that correct?

The plan is to get the location. At the moment, the Mama Haven is in its seed stages. The idea is there. I’ve been doing a fundraiser because I identified a property that I want to buy that’s perfectly suitable, beautiful, in such a quiet space, quiet surroundings to honor the privacy of the woman. It’s got seven bedrooms, beautiful surroundings. I saw this place and I was like, this is perfect to have this Mama Haven here. So I want to establish the first one, actually, in the UK, and I’ve been talking to a lot of people that I’ve been connected to because a lot of my work, it’s actually been in other places. This will be the first thing that I actually will do in the UK, and most of my work has been across other continents. But yes, once we’ve got this one here, there’s other women that would want to put them in their areas, so I see the bigger picture of this is that there’d be a Mama Haven literally all over the world, anywhere and everywhere.

Almost like a franchise, but a bit different. Their own havens, that they would rely on your direction. Beautiful! I am so impressed with the work you’re doing and seeing, since you traveled the world, seeing that there’s more of a need in the UK, and so starting that first haven there makes complete sense.

There is a huge need here.

So fill us in on your funding campaign and how our listeners can connect with you. I’m also curious about how you might handle travelers. What if US citizens want to come during not their immediate postpartum, but later on to get care, for example, once they’re able to travel?

Yes. So what I want to do initially is open the one in the UK and make it available so that actually people can come from anywhere. If somebody’s birthing in the UK, for example, they can be there after the birth and get postpartum care, but the students can come from anywhere in the world. So they can come from the US, and that’s why it’s great to have it as a residential so that the student can come. They can be held in the space, as well. Then they’ve got a skill. They can take that back to where they’re from, and they can begin by giving that service to women, maybe in their own homes, but maybe there’s women there that also want to set up their own Mama Haven. So then I would support them to be able to set up the Mama Haven at their place and just take the training there and be on hand to do the training, make sure it’s all set up and managed, and then I would move away and let that one run by itself. That’s how I would do it.

Perfect. I love the plan. So are the donations directed through your primary website, Our Hummingbird? Or how can our listeners or potential students get involved?

Yeah, they can get involved directly through the website. The page is actually being created as we speak, so I hope by the end of this week, the weekend, it should be finished. I have a giving page as well where people can make donations. So what I’m looking at doing initially is raising, like, 5,000 because once you raise 5,000, you can open a charity. And then I could become a charity, and that way, I can be open to other types of donations, like bigger donations, and I can apply for funding from places and things like that because then what I want to do is create sustainability. So people that want to come but might not be able to afford to pay for something like this, they can still come. Students that want to come, they really have a passion; they have a desire to learn – they could get a scholarship, for example. Also, the mothers that run the Mama Havens, they would have to be residential, so they live on the site. It gives that person security, and then they are able to run a business, so what they’re able to do is create wealth for themselves and their own families because that’s something that I’ve found because I’ve been in different parts of the world and I’ve got my kids and I take my kids to different countries and stuff like that. It’s almost a bit all over the place, but being rooted and being in one place means that actually I can build that wealth, and then that’s something that I can pass on to my children. If I do it for me, I can also do it for other people, whereas when I was doing the work that I was doing because it was just a service, like I just felt like women should have it regardless of whether they should pay or not, it was almost like a call to humanity, a basic human right. I just did it. I did it out of the goodness of my heart, so it was not something that I created a business out of or made anything from. And then I’m like, oh, that was a bit silly, because really, what you want to be doing is if you set yourself up in a business way and you create wealth for yourself and your family, then you’re able to share that wealth so there’s an economy where other mothers can come in and you’re giving them a system where they can also create income and wealth for themselves and their families, as well, and that’s a far better system and a far better blueprint to be doing a business like this than the way that I was doing it before.

Right, giving your work away for free and serving people because it’s in your heart. But yes, we’re able to give back much more substantially if we are receiving income and our families are able to benefit when we’re away if we’re, again, getting paid for the work that we do.

That’s right.

So, Alexandra, you are also on social media. I know Our Hummingbird is your primary. It sounds like you might have another page coming up as well?

On the Our Hummingbird website, the page will go under there, so just by having the link, it will come onside. And I do have an Instagram and things like that, but it’s something I’ve not been so strong on in the social media world because I’ve been doing the work face to face and hands on. I really didn’t have time to build that type of following, and it didn’t feel – it almost didn’t feel right for me, if I’m doing the work and then all of a sudden I have to take out my phone to take pictures to post. It just kind of didn’t work. So I never got that bit down, but I’m learning right now, and I’m like, okay, I need to be a bit more active in there, as well. So I’m going to do my best to also post and things like that and keep that going. But the best way, I feel, that people can really keep in touch with me and get involved with Mama Haven and be a part of it – because I think it’s quite groundbreaking. It will be a flagship project. So for people to stay close to that, I’d use the www.ourhummingbird.com website.

Thank you! Any final tips for our listeners, Alexandra?

Final tips: I would say arm yourself with as much information as you can because knowledge is power, and find yourself doulas and birth workers in your local community. Meet them, get to know them, and the ones that you really gel with, have them help and support you because having help and support and advocacy and love and care during a very powerful but also very vulnerable time in your life is – well, there’s nothing that really compares to it.

Agreed! Thank you so much! It was lovely to chat with you.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Our Hummingbird

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Buy our new book, Supported

Reimagining Care for New Moms with Alexandra Francis: Podcast Episode #243 Read More »

Postnatal nutrition with Genevieve Mena of Mamieli: Podcast Episode #242

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

The importance of postnatal nutrition with Genevieve Mena, Co-Founder and CEO of Mamieli. Kristin Revere and Genevieve Mena discuss everything from traveling with kids to nourishing ourselves during the postpartum recovery phase on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas podcast. Be sure to tune in until the end for the special discount code for our podcast listeners.

Hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Genevieve Mena. Genevieve is the co-founder and CEO of Mamieli, which is a platform supporting moms in postpartum and beyond. Mamieli also launched a topic-based bundle for new moms, curated with top brands and expert service providers. Just this spring, they launched the first marketplace to help moms find affordable, vetted home cooking support in postpartum and beyond. In building Mamieli, Genevieve has been inspired by her personal experience becoming a mom while drawing on her prior professional experience supporting entrepreneurs through initiatives led by Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. She has an undergraduate degree from Dartmouth College and an MBA from Norton and lives in New York City with her husband and two young girls.

Welcome, Genevieve!

Thanks so much, Kristin! So excited to be here!

I am thrilled to chat with you about the importance of nourishing ourselves postpartum, and because not only do you have these amazing pregnancy and postpartum bundles, but you also now have this service where you can find the right type of cooking for even allergies or other concerns that you might have that may not work for some of the friends who want to be helpful and bring you a meal and those meal train services that are helpful, but again, if you have allergies or any dietary concerns, it can be challenging to accept friends’ food or even gift cards, if that restaurant doesn’t work for your needs.

Right, exactly. That’s right. Mamieli is a resource for moms in postpartum and beyond and really, our goal is to provide moms and families with really tangible, practical support. As you said, last year we launched these really beautifully curated bundles for moms for after the baby comes for these key topics. There’s so many little things you need, so many questions you have, and they’re constantly changing from one topic and stage to the next. From postpartum recovery to breastfeeding, baby health questions, traveling with baby, introducing solids, et cetera. We’ve curated these beautiful bundles with the top products from really great brands and we did that with expert service providers in each topic area. Then to this platform that you’re speaking about: we actually just launched about a month ago, this new resource for moms, and we’re starting in New York. It’s a resource for moms to find vetted, affordable, local home cooks to support with meals during postpartum especially, but really any time along the journey of being a busy mom transitioning back to work or just juggling everything. We’re really excited about this. We’re starting here in New York, but then expanding beyond.

It is so needed, and there may be some of those local or the national pre-made meals, but the fact that you can get home cooked meals customized to your needs and your stage from local cooks – that is a fantastic option, and certainly in New York, I’m sure it’s much needed.

Like many ideas and businesses in this space, it was kind of inspired initially from my own experience and my husband’s experience having our first daughter. Postpartum was actually a pretty good experience overall for us. We were excited with our baby. I think the biggest day in and day out pain point that we had was around meals. And I’m someone who loves to cook, but when you have a newborn, you barely have time to eat, let alone cook.

And you’re feeding your baby, no matter how you choose to feed. That consumes so much time!

Exactly, so much time. And so just kind of piecing it together with Door Dash or takeout. We tried some of the meal kits that come in those little plastic containers. Really, none of that is what we wanted to be eating for each meal. What we really want is home cooked meals. But like many new parents, especially in New York, many new parents don’t have family nearby to come cook for weeks on end, and especially when it’s your first, you don’t necessarily have a community to organize a meal train for you. You’re kind of left piecing it together, and we just wanted home-cooked meals and couldn’t really accomplish that because we were focused on the baby and just learning to be new parents. But it did dawn on me, especially when we were about to have our second daughter – now we’re not just feeding ourselves. Now we’re feeding our toddler, too, so we really need to find a better solution for this. And it dawned on me that there are incredible cooks all over the city, and probably someone right around the block from me who’s a phenomenal cook who would love to come and help you while earning a bit of extra income on the side. So, long story short, we built this platform to bring them to one spot, to make it easier for moms and dads to find that kind of local support. We vet them, and it’s a rigorous vetting process to make sure that it’s safe. Everybody is a really incredible cook that can adapt to whatever needs your family has. You mentioned allergies, for example. Some of the families that are booking through our platform – one of their kids has allergies, or there are certain kinds of nutritional goals that the mom has or the dad has, or nutrition for postpartum recovery or breastfeeding or whatever it might be. Since you’re hiring someone to come and cook just for your family, they can tailor it to whatever your needs are. That’s one of the beauties of this. It’s not only healthy and delicious, but also, it can be for whatever needs or goals your family has.

Yes. And as postpartum doulas, we do some light meal preparation. We certainly don’t make full meals for our clients, but we often find that clients will have a particular postpartum recipe book that they would like us to follow, say for the first 40 days. Does that come into play, or is it more of what the chef would like to make for a family?

That absolutely comes into play, and actually, postpartum doulas were a big inspiration as we were kind of organizing how to build this. We spoke with a number of doulas here in New York, and many of them love the idea because they see this as a big point with moms that they’re working with in those early days. And they do light cooking support, and in some cases, the family needs even more cooking support beyond that. But also, some doulas even realize that they like that aspect of the work so much that they wanted to lean into it even more, and in addition to their postpartum doula work, also take on some clients focusing specifically on cooking and postpartum nutrition and developing meal plans for families.

The way it works is, the family – and usually it is the mom – puts in a request for a local home chef. You can browse through profiles of all the different chefs on the platform because every family is different and every taste is different, and your budgets are different. Each home cook sets their own price point, and they have their own style or background. Some are doulas, some are not. Some are professionally trained, some are just really amazing self-taught cooks.

You can browse through these different profiles and then book whoever is the best fit for you or whoever you think resonates most with your family’s needs. Maybe that is more of a focus on the first 40 days and somebody who has a really great repertoire of meals and experience around postpartum specifically, or maybe it’s somebody who has more of a Latin bent to their cooking because they’re from the Dominican Republic, and that’s what your family, especially in a diverse city like New York – to be able to find somebody with a cooking style that matches what you’re looking for.

And then you share your family. Who’s in your household? Who will be eating these meals? What dietary restrictions you might have? If you’re breastfeeding or recovering or if you’re pregnant, and what your family likes and doesn’t like. From there, whoever you book will put together some meal options for you. Typically, families book between three and four meals at a time. Three or four dinners, for example, that then you can reheat over the next few busy days. They’ll put together meal options that you can choose from, and you can tweak it as much as you like. They share all the ingredients that go along with each of those meals so you know exactly what it’s in it, and then either you can do the shopping, or in many cases – most cases, actually, whoever is cooking, the home chef, does the shopping for you just to take the whole load off of you.

It outsources the mental load, which is a huge part of this, as well as the shopping and the cooking and the cleaning up afterwards because it’s that whole process. It’s not just the cooking. It’s everything around it, day in and day out, that is a lot of work for parents. Finding somebody who can help you with this is a game changer is what we’ve been hearing from clients. That term, it’s a game changer – for my mental health and for my family’s health. So we’re really excited about this.

And it’s so important in recovery to have healthy meals, and for breastfeeding moms and pumping moms, to be able to nourish themselves properly. And if you’re so focused on caregiving, if there are other kids that need to be fed, to have the healthy homecooked meals is going to make recovery so much better. You’re going to sleep better. I find as a postpartum doula that sometimes, unless we’re making snacks or telling our clients to drink water or eat, they’re forgetting to eat and nourish themselves.

Yeah, you do. You forget. You’re focused on a million and one things, and you can forget to eat. It happened to me. Then when you do remember, you’re so hungry that you just kind of grab whatever is there, and you’re probably holding your baby while you’re eating. Maybe even nursing. It is a struggle. And now that you’re mentioning this, I’m grabbing my water. You just reminded me to take a sip of my water. It’s true, though. You need to be reminded.

Exactly. So Genevieve, how did the topic-based bundles come about? It’s lovely because you can follow your clients across the journey, everything from the pregnancy bundles to feeding, as you had mentioned, and postpartum recovery. I’m so curious about what led you to solve some of the problems of really understanding the curation and thoughtfulness you put not only into the chef matching platform that you have but also in making moms and families’ lives easier with some of these customized bundles that you’ve created.

We actually started with the bundles, and then the resource of the home cooking kind of grew out of what we saw as one of the big pain points for moms in postpartum, among many, but one being an ongoing one around meals. The inspiration for these bundles was, again, from my personal experience after having our first daughter. I think what struck me was how scattered this whole kind of parenting world is. I was somewhat surprised by it. I knew there were so many things you need to buy and research for, for your registry ahead of times, and even that process is kind of overwhelming. But then even after the baby comes, there are so many little things that you need, and all these questions that you have at the same time. As I said before, these are constantly changing from one topic and stage to the next. You’re focused on postpartum recovery in those early days and figuring out breastfeeding or formula feeding and questions around baby health and introducing solids. Then the next thing you know, your baby is ready to start solids. For each of these, you’re researching all these little things that you need that you didn’t maybe think about ahead of time or plan for when making your registry. But then also all these questions that you have as you kind of encounter these different stages and topics. So we decided to – and I say we. I actually started this alongside my brother, who lives in New York as well, and we kind of launched this platform together. We decided to curate these beautiful bundles for each of these different topics with only the essential items, from the best brands in each category, and we curated them based on what other moms are loving the most. I can talk more about the curation if that’s interesting.

Yes, I’m fascinated by how you vet and decide who to include in the bundles.

First, we kind of curate what different items even go into each of these bundles. So what are the items that most moms actually use for that topic area? For postpartum recovery, there’s a vaginal and a C-section version. What do moms actually use? We vetted each of those bundles alongside experts in that topic. For the recovery bundle, we worked with OB-GYNs. For breastfeeding, lactation consultants. Pediatricians for the baby health and feeding therapists for introducing solids, et cetera. These different experts helped us to kind of say, yes, these are the types of items that we would recommend moms use and that moms actually do use. We didn’t want to fill these bundles with things that are just going to clutter up your space and you’re never going to use. From there, to determine which brand for each of those items or which specific type of – you know, postpartum underwear, just off the top of my head. We wanted to triangulate it across several different platforms. Most commonly registered for items and highest reviewed items across Baby List, Target, Buy Buy Baby at the time, Amazon, and brand-owned websites to see what are moms really loving the most. And then we partnered with those brands to include them in the bundles. We want to be the best of the best, not based on affiliate links or sponsorships or anything like that, so that you can really trust that what’s in in here is truly wonderful. And then the last piece of it is each of those experts that I mentioned that helped us to vet the bundles also contribute a guidance book that comes in each bundle. The recovery bundle has a guidance book that we created in partnership with OB-GYNs that goes through the most common questions they get asked around postpartum recovery. There’s cheat sheets to answer each of those questions. Same thing with all of the other bundles. It’s really bringing together top products with content that kind of cuts to the chase without being alarmist. There’s a lot of content out there that kind of makes you scared or even more uncertain about what you’re doing, and we really wanted to frame this content around reassuring you and kind of cutting to the chase on really actionable tips that are vetted by experts and really helpful for moms who are navigating all of this.

And what a wonderful shower gift or postpartum gift to give a friend or family member!

Absolutely. That was part of our thinking, too. Sometimes on registries, you’ll register for the big things, a lot of the big things like the crib and car seat. But then there’s all these little things, like the ten-dollar nail clipper and the twelve-dollar thermometer and all these little things that, as a gift-giver getting these little things, it doesn’t feel like a really nice cohesive gift. So these bundles really make nice gifts. We see a lot of moms registering for them, and their friends are excited to give them. A fun fact, actually, is that the most commonly gifted bundle from existing moms to new moms is the recovery bundle, which has the least appealing stuff – it’s the diapers and the pads and all those things. But the moms who have been through it know that those things are so helpful. It’s a really popular gift. The baby health one is, as well, and the travel one. They’re all really wonderful gifts.

I love that you have a travel one. We’re getting into travel season, so if you want to touch on that for a minute, I would love to hear more about it.

Absolutely. When we were curating these and kind of developing the topics that we were going to create bundles around, we surveyed a couple hundred moms and asked about biggest pain points and what you used and didn’t use, et cetera. And traveling with babies, being on the go with babies was one of the biggest pain points, which is not surprising to me. It’s hard. It can be hard to travel with babies, especially the first couple of times when you’re just getting used to it. And there are kind of a lot of little things that can make traveling a lot easier. This on-the-go travel kit is one of my favorites, and it’s one of the most giftable ones, as well, I think.

Similar to the other bundles, we crowd-sourced travel tips from moms who have traveled a lot with their babies and toddlers to curate this bundle and create a guidance book that comes with it. It goes through flying, and for example, with flying, questions like, should I bring my baby as a lap infant or book them a seat? Do they need a boarding pass? What do I do about security? What do I do with my car seat? How do I handle jet lag? All these questions around travel. We have lots of cheat sheets in the guidance book on plane travel, car rides, packing lists, et cetera. And then the items in it are so handy. My family travels a whole lot. My husband is from Mexico, and so we travel to Mexico a lot, as well as a bunch of other places, and we use everything in here all the time. It really comes in handy, and it just takes a lot off of that mental load of planning and packing and remembering to bring things. We love it. It really, really comes in handy on trips, but also, even just traveling on the go around the city on day trips and things like that.

Right. It could be by car, train, plane, or boat. It would work for all of the travel options. But I know that it can be intimidating, especially for new parents to take that first big trip, whether it’s a long car ride or a plane ride and having their kids be content and all of the things that they might need in a new place. It’s very helpful that you are inspired by your own travel experiences with two kids and that your brother is also so involved in this business as well with his own experiences.

Absolutely. My brother is like the fun uncle. I’m the third of four, and he’s the baby of the family. And we have lots of nieces and nephews. He’s the go-to babysitter for my kids here in New York. We’re so lucky to have him nearby. And yeah, it’s a lot of live and learn from traveling with babies and toddlers. We’re very much in the thick of it still with – actually, both of my girls just had birthdays, so a three-year-old and a one-year-old now. There are different challenges at different ages when traveling. I think the hardest is probably one and a half to two and a half when they want to be mobile and move around, but they’re not old enough yet to sit through a show on the airplane so you’re just entertaining them the whole time.

It’s work, but I think that the two things that helped me the most: one is preparing, so not leaving everything to the last minute, which is hard to do, and I often leave things to the last minute. There’s even some research around procrastination being good for efficiency, but I would say with preparing to travel, it’s the opposite. You’re just creating more stress for yourself if you’re packing the morning of or doing things at the last minute. It’s much less stressful to prepare ahead of time and start packing ahead of time. And then you can be more thoughtful about what you’re bringing. I find you end up weeding out what’s unnecessary and you pack lighter that way.

The second is just getting in the right mindset and letting go a little bit. It’s probably not going to be perfect. You’ll probably forget something. It might be hard to settle the baby on the plane or you’ll have a hard time sleeping wherever you are. You just do your best and you roll with it, and you try to get right back into things when you’re back home. But I think it’s just a mindset shift that traveling with kids is different than before. It can still be really fun. Being in different environments is good for your baby and for you. That’s kind of the mindset that I try to keep.

I love it. And you mentioned the recovery bundles are very popular gifts that seasoned moms are giving friends. What is your favorite bundle?

Oh, that’s a good question. That’s tough. Probably the baby health bundle. The baby health bundle has a whole lot in it of things that you will actually use. It all comes in this really neat, organized medicine box that also looks cute. This covers all the major topics of baby health issues and even toddler issues that you might face. Fever and pain, colds and congestion, rashes and skin issues that you might come across. There’s all these little things. The thermometer and Tylenol and saline drops and sprays for congestion and nasal aspirator and the nail clipper and file. Vitamin D drops, which is something that a lot of moms just don’t even know exists or is something that you give your baby at the beginning. When you’re at the hospital, maybe they tell you about the vitamin D drops, but there are so many things going on that maybe you forget about it. We have all of these things in the bundles so that you have it when you get home, and you have everything in one spot. Then you have this guidance book alongside of what everything is for and how you use it and all these cheat sheets that I mentioned. It keeps everything organized. In the middle of the night when your baby spikes a fever or you need something, you’re not running out to the store to get it or waiting a couple of days for an Amazon order to come. You already have it all in one spot, and it’s all things that you will use. It’s really meant to be practical and useful. I think that’s probably my favorite one.

I love it. And so many grandparents are now caregivers, so it would be great to have something at their place if they’re watching toddlers or babies over there so they have a full kit of everything they might need.

Yeah, that’s a great idea, actually. And even with these cheat sheets, there’s quick references on how much Tylenol or acetaminophen to give your baby at different weights and sizes, which you forget. You don’t necessarily know offhand. You’re right that it’s great for caregivers or grandparents to have on hand, too. Absolutely.

I love it. I could talk to you forever, Genevieve, but we’re running out of time. Any final tips for our listeners?

Yeah, I’ve loved this conversation! For a final tip, similar to what I said before around traveling. It applies to everything. Let go a little and roll with it. I think that there’s a lot to say around being prepared that can ease stress, but there’s a lot that you can’t prepare for or you don’t know until you go through it. I do think that sometimes as new moms, our generation wants everything to be perfect. Letting go a little bit is probably my tip.

Beautiful. How can our listeners and the doulas in the Gold Coast team find you?

You can find our marketplace for home cooking on Mamieli.com. Right now, it’s just New York, but if you’re not in New York, you can go to the website and put in your ZIP code. We’re collecting ZIP codes from outside of New York, and once we get a critical mass, that’s how we’ll determine how we expand. So even if you’re not in New York, feel free to put in your ZIP code and we’ll reach out to you when we’re where you are.

We’ll be putting in Grand Rapids ZIP codes then to try to get your service in Michigan!

Perfect! And then our bundles, anybody can buy them from anywhere. You can find those also on Mamieli.com, or you can go right to shopmamieli.com. You’ll find all the bundles and cheat sheets and everything on there. And I believe we have a special discount, too, for your listeners. If you use the code GOLDCOAST24, you can save 20% of the entire order.

Thank you! And you’re on social media, so our listeners can also connect with you there?

Yes. On social, we are @lovemamieli.

Thank you for sharing all of your amazing platforms! I’m all about the bundles. What a wonderful gift!

Thank you so much!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Mamieli

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Our book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth & Baby

Postnatal nutrition with Genevieve Mena of Mamieli: Podcast Episode #242 Read More »

Changes in Michigan’s Surrogacy Laws: Podcast Episode #241

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Jessie Jaskulsky of Surrogacy Simplified discuss the changes in Michigan’s Surrogacy laws on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas. Jessie also provides helpful tips to our listeners considering surrogacy as an option to grow their families.

Hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to chat with Jessie Jaskulsky. Jessie has been on the podcast before, and she is the founder of Surrogacy Simplified. She is a surrogacy consultant and concierge. Welcome back, Jessie!

Thanks for having me again! Great to be back!

Yes! I didn’t think I’d have you back quite so soon, but in the prior episode, we were chatting a bit about legislation in Michigan and changes in surrogacy. And luckily, those changes happened a lot quicker than both of us thought, and surrogacy is now legal in Michigan. So I wanted to have you back on to chat a bit about the impact of this and help our listeners and our doula clients in Michigan understand the impact of this change.

Absolutely. I would say so many great things are going to come as a result of this. One of the biggest things is that it’s going to significantly reduce the cost for pursuing surrogacy in Michigan, for a variety of reasons, one of them being that prior to this, if they wanted to pursue surrogacy, they would have had to find somebody out of state and then also ship embryos, and when you start doing those things, it does end up, unfortunately – some people just can’t rise to all of those costs and they don’t pursue the process, so I think it’s going to make it a little more accessible to many intended parents.

Absolutely. And it’s always been a dream of mine as a doula to support a surrogate and work with the family, and so hopefully, that will happen now that it’s legal in Michigan! I’ve had doula friends fly to other states to support those as birth doulas and postpartum doulas.

I would say that’s another really great thing that we’re going to see happen as a result of this is more surrogates that reside in Michigan that previously were not able to come forward and pursue the surrogacy process. So now it’s so empowering to them to be able to have this control over their body if that’s something that they want to do to help somebody complete their family. And then it helps the intended parents because there might be more surrogates becoming available right now. Generally speaking, it’s pretty difficult to find surrogates.

Exactly. And certainly, there are more benefits surrounding fertility and adoption and surrogacy, so that’s also exciting to families in Michigan.

Yeah, absolutely.

So for those of our listeners who don’t understand the surrogacy process, can you walk us through what that looks like? With your personal story, you had shared about having some secondary infertility and a lot of the challenges in navigating your options. Feel free to elaborate!

Walking through the process – and I’m going to give the very high level overview just because it can get a little complicated, but I would say one of the first parts would be creation of your embryos, so going to the fertility clinic. For some people, they may have already been trying on themselves for a while and now turned to surrogacy, or others may have had to go ahead and create embryos knowing that this was always going to be their path. And then from there, deciding what type of journey do you want to have. Do you want to use an agency to help you match with a surrogate? Do you want to go a more independent route where you have a family member or a friend or maybe use social media to find a surrogate? Or sort of a hybrid like myself where you might have somebody come forward to carry for you but then you have me guide you, or a consultant in general, to do all of that end coordination.

So once you kind of figure out the type of journey you want to have, after that, it’s really matching with the surrogate, through whatever method you’re going to use.

Excellent. And so you mentioned working with an agency or the option of working with a consultant or a concierge like yourself. What would you do as a concierge for families in Michigan who are looking for this support?

I think for them, especially because Michigan hasn’t really been doing much surrogacy before previously, you could do an altruistic or an uncompensated arrangement. So maybe the fertility clinics have had some experience, but really, I think it’s going to be so much education for the intended parents because surrogacy hasn’t really happened before. They may not have friends that have gone through the process. And really breaking the process down for them and helping them feel less overwhelmed, whether that’s during an initial consult, just giving them a high level overview of all the different steps involved, helping them understand their choices in terms of the type of journey, the costs associated with different things, and just really helping the parents feel empowered to make these types of choices while they’re on their surrogacy journey and feel like they have somebody there that really understands it and can take them through the process as hopefully stress-free as possible.

And Jessie, how would you be working with doulas, or if other doulas outside of Gold Coast are interested in connecting clients who are, say, struggling with secondary infertility and interested in their options? I would be curious about your role in relation to birth doulas or bed rest doulas or certainly the postpartum, the day and overnight newborn care that we offer.

Absolutely. So there’s a couple different ways. I would love – part of what I do is having this rich network to refer to my clients, and a lot of intended parents do want that doula support for their gestational carrier. So I would say to absolutely reach out. And thinking about making sure that the surrogate feels really supported during her journey. Oftentimes, that is making sure that I have that coordinated for the delivery, that we have the doula ready to go. And then following the delivery, whether the surrogate needs some care and needs that extra support with the help of a doula or the intended parents want somebody at the home to kind of support them in this transition to parenthood.

Yes. And I know sometimes surrogates do end up on bedrest in those final days or weeks, and it can be helpful if they have other children at home to bring in an antepartum doula to help feed the kids, get them snacks, help make the couple who is supporting the surrogate feel like they are able to make a difference and an impact as well.

For us, on my first journey, having a doula would have been really amazing because our surrogate developed preeclampsia and she went on hospital bedrest. And had we had that support at the hospital with a doula, I think that would have been really great. My husband and I helped care for her so her husband could focus on the children, but I think that that additional layer of support would have been really, really incredible. Our daughter came seven weeks early, so we sort of were scrambling to get all the resources together, but I think knowing what I know now, I would guide other intended parents to know about making sure that if they want to have a doula or the surrogate wants a doula, that they have all that perhaps lined up in the second trimester so that if something were to happen at the end – baby’s coming early, or the surrogate’s on hospital bedrest – all of the supports are already lined up and in place.

Exactly. And that’s certainly something to factor in, and we do support bedrest clients, both in the hospital and the home bedrest option. And then some doulas do not make themselves available until 38 weeks, but at Gold Coast we’re on call from the moment a contract is signed, so for those families in Michigan, as you begin to build your business here, we’re able to support if things happen, like preeclampsia, that are not expected, and deliveries earlier than anticipated.

Oh, that’s incredible.

I see so many ways that we can work together! I love that these changes have happened early on. I know you’ve kept up to date on a lot of pending legislation in other states. Are you seeing with this change in Michigan that things may happen elsewhere?

It’s hard to say. I’m hopeful, but I think we’re going to have to keep staying in tune yet in terms of the other two. We have Nebraska and Louisiana still, and I’m just not sure yet what’s going to happen with them. I think we have to keep hoping and praying.

Okay. And what are some of the other states that surrogacy is legal in? I know Colorado is a good example.

Going back to our first podcast together, we talked about traditional surrogacy versus gestational surrogacy, and traditional surrogacy is much less common. And when you say surrogacy nowadays, it’s interchanged with gestational surrogacy, which is when the surrogate has no biological connection to the child. So when I say this, I’m referring to gestational surrogacy. It’s now legal in 48 of the 50 states. Traditional surrogacy is not. It’s much less states. I don’t even know offhand because it’s just so rare nowadays. But really, any state is okay to move forward in, I would say, with the exception of Louisiana and Nebraska.

Exciting! So what are your tips for our listeners who are considering this option to begin moving forward?

I would say balancing becoming informed with going into a rabbit hole and spiraling because there’s so much to know. So really trying to make it digestible. I offer a free surrogacy e-book that anyone listening is welcome to download. We can have it listed in the show notes for everybody, how to access it. And then also learning about, like, the costs, thinking about the relationship you might want to have with your surrogate, just starting to think through some of these points is really valuable so that when you’re in the middle of the journey, it can go much more smoothly and efficiently. And I think also just to end it with being patient with the process. It’s not a quick one, but it’s definitely so beautiful and so worth it.

Yes, and as you mentioned it’s not a quick process – what is the average time that a family would work with you or that the whole planning process would take in getting matched with a surrogate, for example, and even in being able to afford it? Like, if this is something that a couple is just in the early stages and want to begin planning with a consultant like yourself and saving – I feel like there are so many different categories it could go. Once you have your match, how long does that take? And then once you’re in the planning phase, how long is that stage?

I think with the planning phase, it’s really about how long it’s going to take until the intended parents feel comfortable moving forward in terms of affording it, whether they need to wait and apply to some grants and see what happens or look at financing. I think that can definitely play a role. Once you’re matched, the process tends to move on the quicker side. I would say once you’re matched, an embryo transfer can tend to happen within three to six months. So you’re looking at anywhere from a 13- to 16-month journey.

That’s quick.

Yes, and I would say surrogacy in general, from thinking about surrogacy to baby, would probably range from a year and a half to two years, depending upon how quickly it takes to match, how quick different parts of the journey go. There’s always a range on how long it takes to get through the legal process or IVF creation or just the different steps that are involved, and that plays a role in the overall timeline.

Thank you for explaining all of this, Jessie! I am excited to share your download with our listeners, as well. I appreciate you offering that. How can our listeners connect with you?

You can always send me an email at jessie@surrogacysimplified.com. Also, my website has a landing page where you can book an initial complementary consultation if you’re getting started on your journey, whether it’s that you’re ready to move forward or you’re just deciding and feeling overwhelmed, I’m here for you. And I also would suggest if you’re on social media, I post a lot of really valuable tips and reels, and that is also @surrogacysimplified, as well. You can follow me there.

Yes, you’re on LinkedIn, Instagram. Any other social spots?

I’m on the others, but I’m most active on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Same. Agreed. Well, thank you! It was great to chat again, and I look forward to working with you in Michigan, Jessie!

Yes, likewise!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Free Beginner’s Guide to Surrogacy e-book

Surrogacy Simplified

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Our book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth & Baby

Changes in Michigan’s Surrogacy Laws: Podcast Episode #241 Read More »

Craniosacral Therapy for Infants with Meaghan Beames: Podcast Episode #240

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere talks with Meaghan Beames of MyBaby Craniosacral Podcast and Beames CST Training Centre. They discuss how craniosacral therapy can help babies cope with colic, latching issues, and growing pains that can make life with a newborn harder than it needs to be.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Meaghan Beames today. Meaghan founded the Beames CST Training Centre, offering tailored global learning for health professionals. Her mission is to ensure every family in North America has access to qualified craniosacral therapists to help their babies cope with colic, latching issues, and all the growing pains that can make life with a newborn harder than it needs to be. In five years, she’s treated 700-plus babies, taught more than 100 health professionals CST, and built a thriving private practice in Toronto with multiple practitioners working under her. Her knowledge goes beyond just the practical applications of body work and spreads out into being a leader and growing a business. Meaghan is also the host of the MyBaby Craniosacral Podcast with over 40 episodes and 5000 downloads. Welcome!

Thank you so much!

So happy to have you here! Our topic today is all about craniosacral therapy and how it can support the bonding and attachment between parents and infants after birth.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is, obviously, my favorite topic to talk about, craniosacral. So I’m really looking forward to our chat today.

Would you please explain what craniosacral therapy is for our listeners who haven’t yet accessed this care or just aren’t familiar?

For sure! So I realize, first off, that the name is long and hard to pronounce. Some people say cranial sacral, so that it’s easier for them to wrap their mind around. And a lot of times, people think, oh, cranial sacral, that must have something to do with the head and the sacrum. But in fact, it actually has to do with the entire body. So it is an extremely gentle, hands-on healing modality, kind of like massage, but it’s a lot more, let’s say, accurate and pinpointed to very specific areas. And we treat fascia as opposed to muscles as one would in massage. So craniosacral just helps to release tension in the body that could be causing this baby to have symptoms that are really troublesome, and the first thing that – well, not every parent, but the first thing that a lot of adults think when I say that there’s tension in a baby’s body is that, well, that’s not possible because this baby was born. The assumption is that over time and over a period of years, we produce tightness and restrictions in our body that create pain, but that’s not true. If you think of yourself getting injured really quickly – let’s say you were in a car accident, and it was not even a high speed, just kind of like a fender bender, and at that high speed, you get this neck jolt, right? And you might feel that neck jolt for a while. Right? You might feel it for months after, and that was a really quick thing. And babies, when they’re in utero or when they’re being born, they can experience things that cause areas of their body to become tight, and they might feel pain within a couple of months or even a couple of hours after birth. So this is what we’re doing is trying to release some of that tension that causes pain.

Yes, and as you mentioned, it’s very light touch. So I know whether it’s chiropractic care or CST, some of our clients have questions about, again, doing any hands-on work with an infant.

For sure. And that’s the thing. The first question that parents think is, well, is this going to hurt my baby? And, no. If I have a parent who comes into my office who is apprehensive – they’ve been told, like, you really need to bring your baby in to see this person because she’s going to really help – they’re apprehensive because they’re worried it’s going to hurt them, but what I do is I demonstrate just how gentle the touch is on the parents’ hand, usually, and they’re like, oh, that’s it? Are you even doing anything? Because it’s so gentle that it does not hurt. In fact, it often does the opposite. It takes this baby who is experiencing pain, and they’re all scrunched up and their face is – their brow is furrowed, and then their arms relax, the shoulders come away from the ears, their face softens, and they’re in this peaceful sleep. So it has the opposite effect.

Beautiful. One of the common conditions that I will send doula clients to a craniosacral therapist is just feeding concerns where there might be a preference for one breast over the other, for example, and difficulty with latch. So can we start with feeding as a reason to see a craniosacral therapist?

Yeah, that is probably our number one reason why folks bring their babies in to have this done for them. When it comes to side preference – again, adults really have a hard time understanding that a baby can experience tightness or pain, right? So they have this side preference because when they go into, let’s say, they prefer the left breast, let’s say. That means that they like to turn their body to their right, if they prefer the left breast, right? And if they don’t like going to the right breast, a lot of times it feels like a stretch in their body when they’re trying to bring themselves to the opposite side. So it feels like their muscles are stretching and they’re going to bring themselves back into that side preference, or what I like to call it is a position of comfort, rather than a side preference, because a side preference has a negative connotation whereas a position of comfort is like, oh, they feel uncomfortable on the other side. This is their comfortable side. And so I want them to feel comfortable in all positions, and that’s what CST does is it helps to eliminate these restrictions in their body that’s keeping them from feeling comfortable no matter what position they’re in.

Excellent. And it makes a big difference. I’ve seen a change almost instantly with clients. And then colic is another reason to see a CST. Our postpartum doulas who are in the home day and night navigating reflux and colic would then also give referrals for that reason. Can you explain the benefits for colicky babies?

Yeah, and again, colic is an overarching umbrella term for a baby who cries a lot. So when somebody who comes into my office says, I think my baby has colic, my immediate thought is, what is causing this baby to experience pain? Colic is not a diagnosis. It’s just an umbrella term. So when these babies are coming in, I want to feel through their body and a lot of times, they’ve got some tension between their should blades or in their low back that is causing them some pain. So this tension can cause them to be gassy and grunt all the time. It can cause them to have slow bowel movements, or they’re just straining to poop, so they’ve got really distended bellies or they’re just grunting all the time.

Yes, very grunty, right.

Right? And then the parents can’t sleep at night because the baby’s grunting all night and they can’t pass gas. Our job as a CST is to find the areas of the body that are tight that are causing these signs and symptoms, right? We get a whole list of all of the other things that are going on. When are they crying? What does it sound like when they’re crying? Are they pooping? What’s it like when they’re pooping? Are they feeding? Are they swallowing a lot of air? What’s happening in their mouth? Do they have a distended belly? Do they have an outie belly button? Do they have a side preference? So we almost go in and do diagnostic work. I like to say it’s like a mechanic. We tinker around and make sure the engine is working properly, just because – the other thing I like to say is that the body is supposed to work, and when it’s not working, there’s something going on that’s keeping it from its optimal working status. So that’s what we like to do is find what’s keeping it from working optimally and make it feel better so that what is naturally supposed to happen, happens.

Yes, makes sense! And then if our clients have experienced an elongated pushing time where it was hard for baby’s head to emerge or there were any traumas related to the birth itself, then certainly, we do refer. Do you want to address whether it’s, like, say, vacuum or forceps or just a longer pushing phase, why it would be helpful to see a craniosacral therapist?

Yeah, and I’ll add to that, that actually very fast births – so let’s say the birth was an hour and a half, first contraction to born, or a really long birth – let’s say 24 hours-plus. I find that I will see very similar signs and symptoms in these babies, and they both need CST just as much as the other. Then, also, babies who have this beautiful – what I also like to say is rose petals in the bathtub birth where it’s like mama is saying ohm the whole time – they also need CST. Being born, no matter what way, is difficult for this baby because they’re trying to get through a hole that is smaller than themselves and did not and had to get out a different way, or they did fit through a hole that is smaller than themselves. So no matter what, it’s going to be traumatic, but this brings us back to that fascia that I was talking about at the very beginning. The fascia is a protective tissue, and when we are either being pulled too much or pushed too much or too quickly – let’s say whiplash in a car crash – this fascia tightens and contracts to protect what’s underneath it, and that’s its job, and it’s doing a great job. But then it doesn’t relax after like a muscle does. So no matter what way this baby is being born, this fascia becomes tight, and it can cause things like a jaw that is moved off to one side, so an asymmetrical latch. It can cause their cranial bones to shift out of normal range, so maybe they’re getting a flat head or maybe they’re getting a flat head on one side, or they’ve got a really long head. And that has a lot to do with the fascia. So we just help to loosen and let that fascia go so that things can settle into, let’s say, normal range, “normal range,” or optimal range.

It’s really, really cool. And this also helps with restorative emotion. They call it implicit emotions or memories, right, and with those implicit memories come emotions, and so being born is difficult, and we as humans, even you and I, both have stored memories and emotions from our own births that we can let go of using this CST because it’s stored in the fascia, those memories. And so once we release that –

Yeah, our body does store so much!

Absolutely, and we have no idea how much that affects us day to day until we let go of it. So that’s what CST is really useful for is to really help us as humans process the events that have happened in our lives, process them in a way that we don’t have to just hold on to them and keep them, especially if they’re not serving us.

Right. And certainly with surgical births, there is still a need for CST. It’s not just those quick or elongated pushing phases with a vaginal birth, but also babies born via Cesarean.

Correct, whether scheduled or emergency or even crash, those babies still spent time in this person’s pelvis, and they could have gotten – maybe they were breach, and I find actually that breach babies, they’ve got this one spot in their lower spine that causes them to have so much gas. So much grunting.

Interesting.

I call it the breach spot, where we just release it and give the parents some massage and home care so that it doesn’t keep getting tight again to help the baby to poop and pass gas. No matter what, this baby still spent time in a space that was too small for them, and that can cause the body – I like to give other visuals. Let’s say you were sleeping on the couch, and your head was kind of twisted off to one side just a little bit for a little too long, and you wake up, and you’re like, oh, my neck hurts. Let’s now put a baby in that position and then scrunch it up a little bit more with tissue and keep it there for a couple of weeks, and just imagine how much their neck might hurt if you move it off to one side. A lot of the times, that’s why they want to keep their head turned to one side because it doesn’t feel good turning to the other way. And I find that the babies who were born via C-section have this, and so I see them a lot in my practice.

Excellent. I love the visuals. I can totally picture what they’re going through.

Yeah, and if you see those videos of babies in an MRI, just how cramped they are. It just makes sense.

It does. And so when should parents be seeking care, and is there a point where it’s too late to really make a difference?

No, there’s never a too late, and there isn’t a too early. So as you mentioned at the beginning, I do teach this, but I also practice it, and I can actually do CST on a baby in utero. I can feel just by holding on the to mom’s belly – yeah, I can kind of move the baby around and just feel what’s happening in their body, and I can do a CST session with them. I’m going to do one, actually, in about an hour.

I love it so much!

I believe she’s 38 weeks today, so I’m going to do a CST session on her today. So there’s never too early. I would like to say – and I know in your book, we are listed as people you need to plan for or health professionals you should plan for, honestly. Even if your baby doesn’t have major symptoms, having someone do an assessment of your baby within days of birth can eliminate or prevent things like failure to thrive, losing weight, painful nipples or sore and cracked nipples, an extra trip to the hospital because your baby is just, like, scream-crying because they’re so hungry but they aren’t feeding well. So just planning to have this baby have a nice, relaxing CST session within days of their birth will really help eliminate some of those really stressful periods that some parents go through.

And how do parents find craniosacral therapists, whether they’re trained by you – I know you mentioned that you’ve taught over 100 health professional CSTs – or trained by other reputable groups?

Yeah, so word of mouth is best. Go with someone who – if you know someone who has seen someone, go with them. Or you can look up CST through either Upledger or Beames, or there are some who will do CFT. It’s very similar. They have a different approach, CFT to CST. So doing your research on what you feel as a parent you would prefer – again, they’re very similar, just a different type of mentality and approach to the care. But I would just say, go with someone who – if you look up their website and you’re like, oh, I’d jive with them, or I can sense their vibe, and I think that I would feel the same way that they do – go with that, because this is – this is your baby, and you want someone who’s going to respect you and your baby and how you are parenting and how you would parent, because they’re also going to give you advice, maybe unsolicited, but hopefully not. But they’re going to give you homecare and things that you can do to help things be better for your baby. Again, you want to make sure that this person has similar values to you.

That makes sense. So as far as payment, how many visits would be typical? Of course, each infant is unique, but just on average, how many times would you see a family? And then how would they pay for treatment?

So first, I’m going to say, for the babies who the parents at the very beginning are worried about their baby’s head shape, go see a CST practitioner as soon as possible. Your baby’s head shape is probably out of alignment due to fascial restrictions that’s keeping them stuck in that position, and seeing a CST practitioner is going to help them to have more range of motion and get those bones to line up in a little bit better or more optimal position. So for the babies who have head shape concerns, those ones we typically see 3 to 6 or 4 to 8 times over the course of, let’s say, six months. For the first few sessions, it would be weekly for about a month, and then after that, it would be a little bit more maintenance. So it could be anywhere from, again, 3 to 8 sessions for the ones who have head shape concerns.

The ones who have latching concerns, we usually see them about three sessions, but some babies where the parents are like, I just want to see how things are going – we usually just see them once.

And then prices range anywhere from $120 for an hour up to $215 for an hour. Again, the person who is charging over $200, make sure they’ve been doing this a while. If they’ve been doing it for, let’s say, five months, and they’re charging over $200, they haven’t learned enough. To be very blatant and clear about this, they have not learned enough. You might not see the best results just because you’re paying higher prices. Higher price doesn’t always mean better service or better results. So just make sure that if you are paying higher prices, perhaps they have a team approach. Maybe they’ve been doing it for a long time. Maybe they’ve had training from multiple different schools. And check Google reviews. Make sure you check the Google reviews because parents tell the truth there. They really do.

They do, agreed. And then you can obviously use like a health savings or flex spending, as well?

Well, I’m Canadian, so I don’t know what it’s like in the States. But if your listeners are generally American, most CST practitioners have a license to touch or are IBCLCs, and so sometimes you can put it under or through insurance or a super bill. I’ve heard of something like that.

Sure, that makes sense for the feeding-related concerns, if they’re seeing an IBCLC who’s also a CST. Okay. And then as far as other tips for our listeners that are interested in CST or think their baby may benefit from it, what do you have to offer, Meaghan?

I would say the sooner the better, but it’s never too late. A lot of parents are like, well, what benefits am I going to really see? I have no idea. Why would I go? I don’t know what I would – I don’t know what good this will do. No, you’re absolutely right. You won’t know until you go and see what can get better because the worst thing that can happen is nothing gets better. But that almost never happens. So know that there is something that we can help with, even if it’s just – we can get your baby to go into tummy time for longer. Know that that is a benefit, a lifelong benefit, because that’s brain development. That’s meeting milestones better and faster, and that is lifelong benefit. So if you’re on the fence about it, the answer I would recommend, go just even once and see. But bring food. So make sure your baby is fed. Always bring something to eat because they get so hungry in the session. Bring milk. Don’t worry about, oh, it’s their naptime or something like that. Sometimes we can even get them to fall asleep in the session, so they can have their nap in the session.

You mentioned in your bio that you also work with growing pains? Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, for sure. These babies who had a side preference for nursing generally then have a side preference for crawling. And so they’re going to be those ones where it’s like, oh, let’s take a video. This baby crawls so funny. But it’s like, okay, but what does that mean about their body? That means they have a position of comfort and a position of discomfort. So what’s keeping this baby from feeling comfortable on all fours, and again, what I mentioned earlier is meeting milestones and brain development. If they’re only crawling with one leg, that means they are dominant on one side of their brain and less dominant on the other. And we need both sides of the brain to develop simultaneously in order for milestones such as reading. Maybe sometimes dyslexia can happen if this baby doesn’t crawl properly. Maybe sometimes even speech is difficult. So making sure that this baby crawls with both legs. Again, we can help them to feel comfortable on both legs. And when it comes to speech, let’s say this baby turns into a toddler who doesn’t like solids. That can later produce a child who has a speech impediment. So it’s just something where if you see early signs, do something about it because they don’t just “grow out of it.” They grow into it. They compensate for what’s not working properly.

So the earlier you help, usually, the less struggles you have later.

It affects so many different areas beyond feeding and issues with colic or just unhappy babies. Thank you for explaining all of the different benefits and conditions that CST can support.

Oh, the one that I really want to say is sinus congestion and ear infections. Go see a CST. A lot of times, it’s just that there’s poor drainage because of fascial tension, and the amount of times I’ve seen a toddler come in who’s had recurrent ear infections – I do a couple of releases in their ears and in their neck, and they never get an ear infection again after that. That one is a big one.

Amazing! That can be so stressful on families dealing with the constant ear infections. And it could potentially even avoid tubes then later, correct?

Absolutely. It avoids antibiotic use. It avoids serious pain and screaming all night long, but also the antibiotic use affects gut, right? And that can lead to poor gut, which can lead to allergies or sensitivities or leaky gut or all of these things. It’s so much more than just making sure that this kid doesn’t have to have ear infections anymore.

So how can our listeners connect with you, whether they are a parent looking for help or a health care professional who is interested in training with you? What are the different websites and social media channels that you would like to send our listeners to?

For sure! For parents, I have MyBaby CST. That is on Instagram. That has a lot more educational information for parents. That’s also the website, mybabycst.com. And I’ve got my podcast on that one, as well. Then also for health professionals who are wondering, maybe this is for me. I would like to be able to do CST. I have the school, which is Beames CST. That’s also our Instagram handle.

Excellent! Thank you so much, and we’ll have to have you on again, Meaghan!

Amazing! Thank you, Kristin!

IMPORTANT LINKS

MyBaby CTS

Beames CST

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother class

Buy our book: Supported

Craniosacral Therapy for Infants with Meaghan Beames: Podcast Episode #240 Read More »

Kristen Revere guest on Plus Mommy Podcast with pink background

How to Build Your Birth and Postpartum Support Team

Uncategorized / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere was a guest on the Plus Mommy podcast to talk about setting yourself up for success by creating a strong support team for birth and postpartum. Listen to the podcast here.

A strong support team can significantly impact your overall experience and well-being, from physical and emotional support to guidance through the complexities of childbirth and early parenthood.

Let’s delve into the importance of creating a solid team for birth and postpartum with insights from Kristen Revere, an elite birth and postpartum doula.

Kristen shares her expertise on assembling a dream team of professionals, the benefits of having a doula, and practical tips for finding and affording the support you need.

Join us as we explore the various types of birth support team members, the value of postpartum care, and the strategies to make these essential services accessible.

Whether you’re an expectant parent or a birth professional, you’ll gain valuable information to help you navigate this transformative journey.

Benefits of Hiring a Doula

When it comes to birth support, the first thing that often comes to mind is a doula, so let’s begin there.

A doula provides continuous physical, emotional, and educational support, reducing the need for interventions and increasing overall satisfaction, even if the birth plan changes.

Doulas are familiar with hospital policies and can help navigate decisions by providing information on the risks, benefits, and alternatives to non-emergent interventions.

The evidence is clear: doula support leads to better outcomes and higher satisfaction rates.

Finding the Right Doula

When interviewing doulas, consider their experience, personality, and budget.

Look for doulas with specific training or certification in areas that are important to you, such as a size-friendly doula who has completed size-inclusivity training.

A good fit between you and your doula is crucial!

Postpartum Doula Support

Postpartum doulas offer invaluable support to the entire family, not just the newborn.

They assist with household tasks, accompany clients to appointments, provide sibling care, and offer emotional support for the family.

This holistic approach helps ensure the family feels supported and cared for during the critical postpartum period.

Creating Your Support Team

Building a birth and postpartum support team goes well beyond hiring a doula.

Kristen emphasizes identifying your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum goals if you’re wondering where to start.

Whether it’s trying to avoid induction or seeking Vaginal Birth After Cesarean (VBAC), having a clear understanding of your goals helps in assembling the right team.

It’s essential to have open conversations with your care provider early on to ensure they are on board with your preferences.

Types of Birth Support Team Members

In addition to doulas, there are several key professionals and support team members you might consider for your birth and postpartum journey:

Midwives: Certified Nurse Midwives (CNMs) and home birth midwives can provide personalized care throughout pregnancy, labor, and delivery.
Lactation Consultants: International Board Certified Lactation Consultants (IBCLCs) offer specialized lactation support.
Pelvic Floor Physical Therapists: These specialists help with recovery and strengthening post-birth, addressing issues such as incontinence and pelvic pain.
Chiropractors: Chiropractors can help with prenatal adjustments to align your body for an optimal birth.
Acupuncturists: Prenatal acupuncture can support overall wellness, reduce stress, and prepare your body for labor.
Mental Health Therapists: Therapists specializing in perinatal mood disorders can provide crucial support for mental health during and after pregnancy.
Sleep Consultants: Postpartum sleep consultants assist in establishing healthy sleep patterns for your baby, which can significantly impact the entire family’s well-being.
Childbirth Educators: Classes on childbirth, breastfeeding, and newborn care can prepare you for the journey ahead, providing valuable knowledge and confidence.

Supporting the Cost of Your Birth and Postpartum Team

Here are several strategies for making these essential services more accessible:

Insurance Coverage: Check if your insurance covers services like physical therapy, lactation consulting, and chiropractic care. Some states now include doulas in their Medicaid programs.
Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) and Flexible Spending Accounts (FSAs): Use these pre-tax accounts to pay for eligible services, reducing your out-of-pocket expenses.
Employer Benefits: Some companies offer maternity benefits that include coverage for doulas and other support services.
Community Resources: Look for nonprofit organizations and hospital programs that offer doula services and other support on a sliding scale or for free.
Registries and Gift Funds: Instead of traditional baby gifts, set up a registry for support services through platforms where friends and family can contribute.
Personal Budgeting: Prioritize your spending based on your birth and postpartum goals. Consider reallocating funds from non-essential items to invest in support services that will benefit your family’s well-being.

Whether through a doula, community resources, or personal support networks, having the right team in place can make a significant difference in your experience.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Plus Mommy Podcast

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Buy our book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby

How to Build Your Birth and Postpartum Support Team Read More »

Tips for Supporting New Parents with Lizzie Williams: Podcast Episode #239

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Tips for supporting your friends who just had a baby with former Gold Coast Doulas client, Lizzie Williams. Kristin and Lizzie chat about everything from creating an intentional baby registry to her top tips for supporting new parents in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas. Lizzie contributed to our new book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with my friend Lizzie Williams. Lizzie has a background in marketing and communications and lives in Grand Rapids with her husband, two teenage stepsons, and their two-year-old daughter. Lizzie was a student in the Becoming A Mother course and also utilized our postpartum doula services.

Hey, Lizzie!

Hey, Kristin!

I am so excited to chat with you. You have been such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to spreading the word about support options, and you were recently featured in a local magazine with tips on supporting parents and friends and had so much helpful advice that I asked you to hop on Ask the Doulas.

Yeah, I’m excited to be on. I’ve been what they call a long time listener, first time caller.

I love it! Thanks for listening. So what are some of your tips? I know in both the Becoming A Mother course and just sharing in our group and also in your article and in the contribution to our upcoming book, Supported, you had talked a lot about how before you had kids, you didn’t really know how to support friends who were expecting or new parents.

Yeah, totally. I felt like when I had my daughter, Betty, it was like people came out of the woodwork with support and love and were pouring into me and my husband and our kids in ways that I was blown away by. And I’m like, how do you guys know how to do this? How did you know that I would need that thing, or that this little moment would mean so much to me? So I was talking, actually, with a coworker about it at the time who didn’t have kids herself, and she was just like, can you just give me some info on – now that you know how people can show up for you, can you share that with others so that the rest of us can be better friends and better family members? And I was like yeah, I’m going to take some notes! So I’ve actually been thinking about this for almost two years because of that, because of my friend Andrea kind of asking those questions.

So I did take some notes and tried to really pay attention to the things that people did for us that were really helpful and just made that transition into being a parent of a newborn a little bit easier. Of course, my Becoming course crew was also, I would say, a critical little group of people. I was thinking about it last night because my daughter is having some leap regression as a toddler, and I was in her bedroom at 1:00 in the morning, and I was having flashbacks to late night feedings where you’re just scrolling your phone. And I would post sometimes on a private social media channel for the students that were in your Becoming course, and I would post on there, does anybody know anything about this? Whatever it was. Almost inevitably, somebody by 8:00 a.m., by the morning, would have responded to me, like, “Reaching out! Here’s a couple things I’ve thought about!” So I guess I would say my first note is finding a community and being a community. Whether you’ve had kids already or not, new parents need community and need the classic village to support them and love them, and as a new parent, you also need to accept that.

Absolutely. Whether it’s a new parent support group or a breastfeeding group or something virtual like the Becoming A Mother course, people who are going through the same thing at the same time. It’s so important because, again, whether it’s teething or sleep regressions or baby proofing your house, things come up. I know with my kids, being preteens, so much has changed since I was in the early parenting phase that my advice, if I wasn’t a doula and working with newborns and pregnant individuals, I wouldn’t have that ability to give good advice.

Oh, my gosh, yes. My husband has two older kids, so I have teenagers that I live with, as you mentioned, so 18 and 14. And I would say to him, Steve, what’s going on here? What is this thing that this baby is doing? What do we need to know? And he’s like, I can’t even remember, both because it had been a while, and it’s such a blur when you’re in it. And things change. Recommendations change. He was like, I have to relearn all this stuff right along with you.

Absolutely. Things from safe sleep to just feeding options. Bottles are so different. Pumps are so different. It all changes constantly, and technology being involved in parenting, whether it’s the monitors and things that are just beyond what I had as a new parent.

Yes. I guess within that vein is helping people, if they don’t have that network of others, whether it’s moms or dads or support people – helping them find that can be really critical. Recently, I started a little new moms group for people specifically who are new to West Michigan, which is where I live. And it was mostly because if you’re new to the area and you also don’t have anyone in your life that’s got a baby, it can be super isolating. That was a space that I knew I could help a few people find connection in. And I love seeing the texts like, okay, can somebody help me with this one thing? It is walking along the path with people who are at the same stage as you. It can be hugely impactful.

Exactly. That is so beautiful, and especially if they don’t have friends or family nearby. We have so many people moving to West Michigan for work, and no matter where you are in the country, people are moving more than ever. But I also find that many clients have lived in other cities and states and then end up moving back before their baby is born to get that support from family. So it goes kind of both ways, either moving here for work, or moving back and not having friends or that support network, other than the grandparents.

Totally. And even in that regard, my mom was so sweet. My mom lives in the area, and I was again thinking about it in prep for this podcast, but it’s like, I think my mom called me every single day for the first four months that my daughter was here, and it was such a gift to have that, knowing that she was going to call and knowing that I was going to have somebody to be able to talk to. But even that, again, she didn’t – she wasn’t the person I was going to for specifics. She was just showing me love. And you need both. I needed to just know that I was loved and cared for and could tell somebody a stupid story, but then I also needed other mom friends who I could ask those more specific questions for the people who are in the weeds with you. Like, I’m six and a half weeks. What am I looking for? What is my baby going to do tomorrow? And these other parents kind of show up and say, okay, I’m at seven and a half weeks, and here’s what I’m seeing. You kind of need both, people in the trenches with you and then people just loving on you, checking in on you, asking how you’re doing. It’s definitely a combo, I would say.

Absolutely. And yeah, we have a grandparents class just for that reason, to try to get grandparents who want to help up to speed on everything from car seats to childproofing their home. Many grandparents are now caregivers when maternity and paternity leave ends just because we’re in a childcare crisis right now. It’s almost forced on grandparents, and they don’t know all of the changes in feeding and sleep. So that’s been utilized more recently than even when we started Gold Coast and introduced it.

That’s a great idea. I didn’t know that you did that, but I can totally imagine how it helps sort of neutralize some of those conversations as well, instead of as a mom or dad, that you’re like asking your parents to do something differently than how they did it, having a neutral party like Gold Coast coming in and just providing up to date information. It would be super helpful.

Right. Those conversations can be awkward.

Definitely.

So what are your tips for friends who maybe haven’t had kids to support their friends and family members who are going through a major life change, whether it’s baby number one or baby number three? There are still a lot of care that’s needed in this isolating time.

Totally. I think for me, and maybe this is because I’m not someone that loves to cook, and cooking always feel kind of like a chore at our house between my husband and I, but the meal train was an absolute gift. I think my sister was the one who set it up, but we had people dropping off meals probably three times a week for the first couple months. And it was amazing. And some days, I was feeling like I wanted to hide and I was not prepared to see anyone, and I remember one of my friends dropped off something on the porch, and I literally – she almost saw me, and I crawled into my office so she wouldn’t see me because I was just like, I do not have the energy to talk. I can’t do this right now. And then other days when somebody would be dropping something off, I would have a jolt of energy, or I’d just want to talk. And so the meal train was nourishing for our bodies, and it took something huge off our plate, which was meal prep, but it also allowed an opportunity to either see people if you wanted to. Even just a couple minute conversation when you’re in the trenches can be a real life saver at times, and it can give you kind of a perspective shift if you’re feeling a little off, which you do feel off.

You do, absolutely. And to have adult company even for a few minutes can make a big difference. The days can be really long when partners are going back to work and you’re in an empty house with this baby and exhausted and feeling like you’re constantly feeding. No matter how you feed, there’s still that feeling like it never ends.

Yes. So I would say that was my number one biggest thing, help with some meals. There’s an online website called Meal Train where people can actually put in if you’ve got dietary restrictions or how many kids are in the home. You can kind of customize to what your own family’s needs are, which can be really helpful because then it doesn’t leave people wondering, oh, I don’t know if she eats dairy. You know, it just allows you to put all that information out there, and then your friends are able to support you in a way that feels good to you. That was great. And it’s funny; I had met a friend recently who moved from Chicago, and she had her third baby. We set up a meal train for her, and she was like, what is this? This is amazing. I’ve never felt so cared for. And I’m like, yeah. You need it not just for the first kid. You need it for any kid, or even major surgery. It’s just such a good way to support people with whatever challenge they’re going through in life. It just takes such a big burden off their plate.

Absolutely. And I feel like there’s so much more attention spent on the first baby, but you often need that support more when you have other kids at home. You even mentioned the teenagers that need to eat all of the time. It’s so important.

Yes. So that’s my number one is help nourish people because your body – especially if somebody’s breastfeeding, their body is just going through a lot. Another thing that a couple of my girlfriends did that I was not aware of was they made little lactation cookies or even these little lactation muffin bites that were just packed with veggies and healthy grains and low on sugar, and they were for those late nights when you need a nibble. For me, having never done this before, I was not prepared for how often I was finding myself hungry, as somebody who was breastfeeding. I need a lot of snacks!

Absolutely. And to keep up supply requires a lot of hydration. Sometimes the extra like you mentioned, the teas and cookies, can make a big difference.

Yes. Even a delicious drink was so thoughtful and so nice. One of my girlfriends works around my house, and she would drop off a little coffee for me. It’s such a little thing, but it was so thoughtful. Or a little kombucha, just something to serve as a little delight in your day. It can feel so profound in these moments when you’re just really beat, really tired, and really overwhelmed. Those little moments of love that people have the opportunity to show you are both easy for them and very meaningful for you.

Yes. And food is such an act of service and love, whether you make it yourself for someone or you utilize a catering or delivery service.

Yes.

I know for friends of mine out of town, I will utilize a service. A friend had twins, and I had food delivered for her and her husband after that first night.

Totally. The same for me. One of my girlfriends, after I had my daughter – she had a little boy – and she lives in a different state. And so I’m like, oh, man, I wish I could help her in this way that others have been helping me. But I just ended up sending her a Door Dash gift card, and I could just text it to her, and maybe it’s not as amazing, but if it made her life just a little bit easier, then it’s worth it.

Yes, absolutely. So, Lizzie, outside of gift cards and meals, what are your other tips for supporting new parents?

I think inviting them on a walk can be a really nice way to both help them kind of get outside, get some fresh air, and also just sort of meet them where they are. That was something helpful for me, at least, because it meant that they were coming to me, so I didn’t have to load the baby up in the car seat and sort of go somewhere. It could be as simple as just walking down your street, or you could go for a longer cruise. For me, when I would go with some of my friends who were already parents, it was an opportunity for me to pepper them with questions, basically, and say what about this? What about this? What about this? And that was very helpful. It was just like dedicated time together, but I felt like I wasn’t having to step away from my baby to get it, if that makes sense.

It does! It’s hard to find a sitter. You often don’t want to leave your baby as an early parent, and so it’s nice to have that community and also be able to get some vitamin D and do some light exercise. It’s so important.

So that was a really helpful one for me. Sometimes one of my friends would offer to run an errand with me, which was, again, so helpful. If you’re just popping in to a couple little places – for me, there’s a bakery nearby that I love to go to – and it’s like, cool, if she can just hop in the car with me – again, so I don’t have to be unloading the car seat and putting it back in, because that is heavy. Much heavier than I anticipated.

And you’re not supposed to be lifting after delivery, so it’s like you want to avoid some of that, and to have a friend in the car to help is huge, or a doula!

Exactly. Those little things – that’s for your super close kind of besties that you’re like, get in the car. We’re running errands, you know? But that can be anyone. And I also actually found that specifically for my friends who didn’t have kids yet, one thing that was really nice is that they could come over after my daughter was asleep, and that was such a gift because my sister, for example, who had an 18-month-old when my daughter was born – we really couldn’t see each other in the evenings because we were both kind of doing nighttime routines, whereas my brother and his girlfriend, now his wife, they could pop over and come over at 8:00. They could bring some snacks or we could play a game and kind of feel back to normal a little bit because they had the flexibility around time. It was so nice having a blend of friends who didn’t have kids and friends who do have kids so that you can kind of balance out your world a little bit.

Yeah, it is helpful to have family at a similar stage. I have a lot of siblings, and I was pregnant at the same time as two of my sisters-in-law, so going through all of those life stages at the same time was very helpful, and dealing with holidays and family meals and so on – it made it so much easier to have family with babies a similar age.

Definitely. A couple other things that came to my mind: one is so simple, but I really noticed it when I went back to work. When people asked about my daughter by her name, it just – I don’t know, it kind of shifted something in my heart, I guess, where I’d be like, oh, this person really cares about me. They’re really listening and they’re really paying attention and they’re not just asking about like, oh, how’s the baby? They’re saying, how’s Betty? It was like, I’m listening. I care about you. And just hearing that when you’re on a work call or in a board room or whatever, it can just soften your whole approach in a way that I felt was really meaningful to me. That’s just a simple one that I think that anybody could kind of take note of, I guess.

So what are your other tips? I know you have many!

I know, I’ve got so many different ways of thinking about things. I think a couple things that I just didn’t think about how nice they would be – I did not expect how much clothes you would go through at the early stages. Every time my aunt would come over, she would kind of casually leave behind a little PJ set or whatever, and I’m like, why does she keep leaving these pjs? All of a sudden I’m like, oh, it’s because we’re going through a bazillion onesies. Oh, because these are very helpful to have more of. I would say even just leaving something little if you are stopping by was so sweet. The board books – again, I kind of thought, okay, these are going to be just for the little babies, but my daughter is two, and she still loves looking through board books. They last a while, and so anytime you can kind of think about something that’s related to maybe you and your friend or your family member that would make that board book a little special for the baby and for the parent. For example, I worked in technology, so we would send out to all of our employees that had babies a little book about little baby technologists and first words in tech. It’s something related to that, where even now that I don’t work there even now, but when I read that book to my daughter, I still have fond memories of my colleagues who sent that to me. So put in a tiny little extra mental energy and try to think about something that relates to you or your relationship to your friend, family member, or coworker, whoever it is that added that little baby to their lives.

That’s so thoughtful. And it is great when employers are able to put together care packages that sort of tie into the work that you do but also value you as a parent and want to support you in that journey.

Absolutely. Yeah, it is so nice. One of my other coworkers, she actually went online and found my baby registry. I didn’t send it to her. She just searched and found it, and then when my daughter was born, she shipped some items that hadn’t been purchased, and they showed up at my house. It was so sweet, so thoughtful. It didn’t take that much effort from her; it just took a little bit of intentionality. And it really was just such a sweet surprise from her. So that was another good one. And then care packages that also focus on the parents or the other kids in the home, if there are other kids in the home, can be so sweet, just reminding them that they are human. Any little treats for them can be really nice. Like some cozy new slippers or a blanket. My sister-in-law got me a little basket, and it had some lotions and lip gloss and things like that, not things I had ever bought myself recently, so it was just a little treat, you know?

That is so thoughtful, and I agree because sometimes after delivery, it becomes all about the baby, or if there are multiple, babies. And the mother and the other parent often feel neglected. It’s like, well, I went through this, and what about me? So the fact that friends or employers are also focusing on the parent as well as gifts for baby.

Exactly. And in that vein, another thing that can be so nice for the parents is taking a few pictures. If you are over and visiting and you’re holding the baby, to just snap a few pictures of them. I mentioned this in my article, but it’s like in the moment they might text you those photos and you might be like, what? Why did you take that picture? Because you’re exhausted and you have bags under your eyes and you’re wearing pajamas that you’ve been wearing for three days. I get it. But long term, that was you in the moment, and that is the special time that I think you can look back on later and be really grateful for those little kind of candid moments that some of your friends snap. Again, that’s such a simple little thing, but it can be so sweet.

It’s all about the thought, just showing that you care. That seems to be your major theme.

I think that is it, and trying to anticipate things that the parents might not be able to anticipate themselves right now. Another big thing, which again, the doula support also helped me out with this, is helping around the house with little things. Like when my postpartum doula would come over and I would be breastfeeding, that was a thing that I kind of had to do on my own. So while I was doing that, she would say, hey, what can I do around here? And of course, for so many of us, the answer is, oh, nothing. Nothing. It’s fine. I’m fine.

It can be hard to ask for help, but that’s what we’re there for.

One of the suggestions that she gave me was, why don’t you write down a couple things before I come, and that way, you’ve already thought about it, and it’s written down, and then I can just come over and start doing those things. So I had gotten a hand-me-down stroller, and it had lived in somebody’s garage for a while, so it had some cobwebs and things like that. So that was on my little list of things that I was going to try to tackle over the next week or so. And she was like, I’ve got this. I can do it. And so she just helped me out and started dusting it off, and by the time I was done breastfeeding – even that little amount of effort that she put made the stroller a thousand times better looking and ready to go. She could help me tackle these little tasks that there’s just so many of. There’s so many little tasks when you’re operating minute by minute. So being able to ask your friends or family or people that you are letting into your home – let them do a couple things for you. Let them load the dishwasher. Let them throw something in the washing machine or fold something that’s in the dryer. Let them do it. I guess that would be a note for the parents themselves, but as the caregivers and the people that are showing love and support, just be ready to kind of jump up and start doing and let them kind of guide you on what they’re comfortable with.

Yeah, and depending on the parents’ personality, a list might be easier. There are some of those printable checklists that you can put on your fridge if family or friends come in after a new baby. You can list things like unloading the dishwasher, some simple things that can make a big difference. Straightening up the living room, picking up toys if there are other small kids at home.

Yeah. Something that I had never known about was sterilizing a lot of stuff. You have to sterilize your bottles and all this stuff. And it’s like, okay, the last thing you really want to do when you have a teeny tiny baby is boil water and sterilize stuff in boiling water. So that was another thing. If my mom was over or if my doula was there, I’d be like, do you mind? And they never minded because it was a pretty simple task for them to do, but when you’re holding a little baby, it’s not as simple. It’s just trickier.

It is tricky, yes. And those dropped pacifiers. All the pump parts. Constant sterilizing.

I’m having PTSD flashbacks about pumping right now.

I know you mentioned the baby registry earlier and your colleague finding it, but you put a lot of intention into your registry and also when you were in the Becoming course, you had asked a lot of questions and really focused on sustainable and reused items for your personal registry and not wanting to be wasteful. So we had you add a section about creating the registry to our Supported book because it was so thoughtful and helpful. If you would like to elaborate just a bit on that, I would love for our listeners to hear some of your tips.

Yeah, I mean, my friends and family were putting together a shower, and they’re like, what’s on your registry? And I’m like, wait, shouldn’t you guys be telling me what’s on my registry? You all have done this, and I don’t know what I’m doing yet! I did find myself doing a lot of research, and of course, reaching out to some of my good friends who have had babies. I reached out to you and Alyssa, who were so thoughtful to give me some additional tips. I remember Alyssa being like, I don’t think you need nine swaddles, Lizzie. And I’m like, okay. Okay. I don’t know. I’m just basing this off the internet. I had a lot of good feedback. But really for me, as you mentioned, I wanted to keep sustainability in mind and the amount of stuff that we were bringing into our house. I think my big thing with creating a registry was to give yourself time at the front end to think about your values, which I think is an important thing to do when you’re making a lot of different decisions, but your registry is an opportunity to say, okay, how much stuff do I need, and if I’m going to be getting this, then what value lens am I looking at this through? Do I want to be getting everything on Amazon? Some people, that’s easy. It’s convenient. They have great return policies. That may be in line with what their priorities are. For me, I wanted to be trying to get more from local businesses where I could because that’s something that’s important to me, or finding used second-hand or even actual sustainably built products. There’s different layers to that, of course, of where you get it, how you get it, and then what is it made of.

Right. So a blend of supporting local and having eco-friendly items, whether it’s a toy or any products. I know you were trying to avoid plastics and the waste that even comes with packaging sometimes.

Exactly. I think giving yourself time to think through those things is helpful. The other one that I didn’t really know a whole lot about at the time was the actual mechanics of some of the toys and things like that. Some of my friends had said, oh, you’re going to love this baby jumper that kind of hooks up to your doorframe, and then as I learned a bit more about the Montessori approach, I was then less interested in kind of container-based toys. Even learning about actual child development, it’s like, okay, well, I don’t think we do need that. It’s fine that other people use that, but it’s just probably not going to be something that we need, you know? But it was funny. Even for my baby shower, for example, I had said, hey, I’m going to put these things on the registry so that you know what I’m thinking, but if you have this and you want to regift it or pass it along, that’s great. We don’t need new items. These are just some of the things that we’re looking for in general. And we also said no packaging. And some people – you know, you’ve got that great aunt who can’t comprehend that you wouldn’t want something wrapped with an amazing, beautiful bow, but amazingly, my friends and family all followed the directions. Even simple things like that, like okay, I don’t need a thousand different gift bags, and I don’t need to waste even just trash in the packaging elements of the festivities around having a baby.

Right. And then you just have to deal with all that waste when the shower is over and so much more cleanup. It makes perfect sense.

So what other tips do you have for new parents to really plan to get the support that they need and build their registry and communicate their needs to friends and family?

I think, again, start with sort of giving yourself space to think about, what does this look like for me. One of my good friends said how you begin is how you go. And that might be a real quote by somebody famous, but I don’t know. That’s just what she said to me, and I thought it was an interesting thing to think about. As I was setting up spaces for Betty and thinking about what we needed, it was like, okay, what kind of parent do I want to be, and what kind of kid do I want her to be? I wanted her to be a kid that could make a rocket ship out of blocks. And I wanted her to be a kid that helped whip up some muffins in the kitchen with me. I don’t know, I just wanted her to be hands-on, creative, problem solving, comfortable outdoors. So I think just giving yourself space to think about, like, who do you see this kid becoming, and then how do you set up your systems and support to allow for that?

This may sound like a random example, but I wanted Betty to know that I had friends. Right? I wanted her to know that she was a critical part of my life, but so are my friends and so are these other pieces of me. So even when it was really hard at times for me to leave her, I would try to say the things out loud that were showing that value. Even in those early months when I would go to meet up with a couple of girlfriends or something like that, I would say, like, hey, it’s hard. It’s really hard for me to leave you right now, too, because I love spending time with you, and I love you so much. But it’s also really important for Mom to go see her friends because they’re really important to me, too. And so just really being thoughtful of the behavior that you’re modeling for them is, to me, kind of the crux of it all, and allowing your child to be your community and to see people show up for you. They’re not going to remember that from being three days old or nine days old or thirteen days old, but it’s part of you then, and you then show up for others in the way that people showed up for you. It’s just all about living with intention, I suppose.

It is, 100%. So you have shared your wisdom in blogs and social posts. Of course, in the Supported book. And I didn’t know until today, but you also created this lovely community for new moms. So how can our listeners connect with you, other than reading about your registry tips and your own personal experience with pumping in the book?

You know, it’s funny. I never anticipated that I would be maybe so communicative about parenting when it seems like in some ways to be such a common thing, but when you’re in it, it just overtakes your life. For me, it’s been in a very positive way. So I have really enjoyed kind of thinking about it and writing about it and reflecting on it. So I do that sometimes online, but I don’t have a specific place for people to follow me. I’m on social media, of course, on Instagram or LinkedIn, so people are welcome to connect with me on there. But yeah, it just opened my heart up in a way that kind of surprised me, and so I wanted to acknowledge it and share it in ways that could be helpful for others, I suppose.

Well, thank you so much, Lizzie! I appreciate your time and all of the intention and support you offer new parents, but especially new mothers.

Yeah, and thank you, Kristin. Obviously, I had never even heard of doula support before knowing you and Alyssa, so it was such a gift for me to go through that Becoming course, which was hugely important for me, and then also all the support that you’ve shown following that. So I do really want to say thank you to you and to the whole Gold Coast team for the way that you honor mothers and fathers and really allow us to flourish. It’s been very helpful for me. I appreciate you inviting me onto this podcast to chat about my experiences.

It was fun! Thank you so much, and I appreciate all the kind words!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Lizzie’s article about supporting new parents

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Buy our book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby

Tips for Supporting New Parents with Lizzie Williams: Podcast Episode #239 Read More »

How to Prepare for Birth and Postpartum with Kristin Revere

Uncategorized / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere spoke about the new book Supported as a guest on the kozekoze podcast with Garrett Kusmierz. Here’s their conversation.

Listen to the podcast!

Welcome back to the kozekoze podcast, and happy Mother’s Day! Wow, what a day. This is my fourth Mother’s Day, which sounds really crazy. I cannot believe I have a three-year-old, and now that he’s three, he’s in his fourth year of life, and it’s surreal, really. Motherhood changed everything for me. It not only helped me conceptualize the idea for my company, kozekoze, but it’s changed how I work. It’s changed my day to day life. It’s changed my perspective. It’s changed the way I work with my nervous system. It’s made me work on healing my own wounds. It is everything, and so with all that motherhood can hold and the grief that is also present if we’ve lost a mom or are not in a good relationship with a parent – wow. Motherhood and the mother – I mean, there’s just so much there. It’s a sacred relationship.

I’m honored today to have Kristin Revere as our guest. She is the owner and founder of Gold Coast Doulas. They are based in Grand Rapids, and they are a force. They were voted best doula service. They’re a very big agency. Kristin is a change maker. That’s the best way to put it. She understands the journey that you go through when you are growing a baby, birthing a baby, and then finding yourself thereafter. So she created Gold Coast Doulas to fully support the new mom, whether that is through newborn care, birth doulas, sleep consultations, lactation and breastfeeding support, bedrest support, baby registry consultations, so on and so forth. One of her most popular classes is her Becoming A Mother course online, but they also teach HypnoBirthing classes and they also – this is cool; she talks about this in her interview – they have a grandparents class, which I think is also super cool because so much changes over the years. So I’m excited to get into that today with you guys, but it’s also really important that you guys know that she has a book that is out. This book is out today. It’s called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, and she co-authored it with Alyssa Veneklase, and they are both certified doulas and also newborn care specialists. I just absolutely love how all encompassing this book is. She’s going to share a little bit more about this today.

I am hot and cold with reading, and I think it really just speaks to my enneagram 7. I’m one of those people that’s either reading five books at once or doesn’t read for five months or, you know, two years. But I know that so many of my friends are never not with a book, if that makes sense. So if you are one of those people who likes reading over online courses or online virtual workshops or in-person things, this book is for you. And it’s everything you would learn during the Becoming A Mother course. So very, very excited for you guys to hear from Kristin today.

Before we get into it, I’m going to share a little update with you guys on my fertility journey because that is obviously one of the narratives we have on this podcast and one that we have had in the background of all of these amazing interviews over the past two years and a couple months.

So I’m actually recording this a little bit less than a week before it goes live. I’m actually meeting with my IVF doctor today. I have a few bones to pick with her. The issue or interesting fact, I would say, with secondary infertility is that I have this beautiful, strong belief set in my subconscious, like in my core, this knowing that I can conceive. I can get pregnant. I have been pregnant, and I’ve had healthy pregnancies. And I’m so grateful for that core belief because I cannot imagine if this was my first fertility journey. I probably would have already gone through IVF given that I am so – what’s the word? So excited and so ready to have this baby. But the reason I’ve held out on IVF is because I do have that core belief that I can do it naturally because I have done it naturally before and I conceived my son, our son Declan, the first try.

And so I’m meeting with her today because I’m pretty shocked that over the last year of going to IVF consultations, she never really inquired or asked about my autoimmune conditions of celiac and Hashimoto’s and also my asthma. Not that that’s autoimmune, but I do have that as an issue. And it was actually my pulmonologist a week ago who was like, hey, why are they not asking you about your asthma? I would get a second opinion, with how expensive IVF is. So I’m going to meet with my original doctor once more before we look into getting a second opinion because quite honestly I am exhausted on this journey. It’s been such a beautiful ride of learning and recalibrating, and at one point, I’m sure I said it on this podcast. I was like, wow, we must be birthing a princess into this next life and she wants everything to be perfect because we had our house inspected for mold three times because mold can onset Hashimoto’s. We have had our water checked a few times. We have both had our health inspected, up and down, left and right, all across the board. We’ve changed our eating habits. We’ve just done so much, and we’re so ready to be pregnant. But we’ll see what she says about any other fertility drugs before just going through a full IVF cycle. So I’ll keep you posted on that.

And then one other interesting aside that I mentioned in another episode is that I had an orthopedic doctor share that they found a cyst on my ovary when they were doing a hip MRI, which was so random, and I was so worried, and I took to TikTok and I’m like, I can’t believe this. And someone was like, you know, it could have just been your follicle about to ovulate. And I thought to myself, you know, you’re probably right. And sure enough, that’s what it was. I had an ultrasound a couple days ago, and they were like, you have no cyst. You’re fine. It was probably just a follicle. So that’s good news. I’m very, very grateful to feel like I truly am in good health after this wild last year of doing all the hormone tests, the stool tests, the hair and mineral tests. There’s so many things we can do with our holistic health, which is great, and I’m grateful to have had the privilege to go on this journey of looking at my health and my fertility. But I’m ready for it to come to an end, and I do feel that I’m very close to pregnancy. So that is my Mother’s Day wish. I am sharing it, as that is what we do with manifestation and speaking our wishes into reality. But on the kozekoze front, I am actually in New York this weekend as you guys are listening to this. We were a part of the gift bag for the Mysha event, the Mother Yourself event, in New York. I will have a full update about the event after I go to it, so the following week. I’m very excited. Mysha is an incredible group. They are all about community, and you basically pay to be in a pod with people that have the same due date as you. And while Mysha does not have a pod in New Hampshire, they will probably have one soon in Boston, but they’re in New York, LA, and Miami. Maybe one more city, but that’s all I can think of right now, or at least all that I’ve heard. I actually met two or three – basically, three moms that are now my closest friends in New Hampshire that all have babies with almost the exact same due date as me, which is pretty cool. So I totally get how and why that community is so powerful because I just happened upon it accidentally and serendipitously in my life, and I’m so grateful for that. So we’re excited that Nip Gloss got to go inside the Mysha gift bags for the Mother Yourself event, and I am really excited to attend the event. So I’ll come back with details soon.

In the meantime, you guys get to hear from the amazing Kristin Revere. She has quite the interesting career journey, and I’m so excited for her new book, Support: Your Guide to Birth and Baby coming out. I want to gift any listeners – new listeners, old listeners – a coupon code, THANKYOU20, to buy your breastfeeding tool, Nip Gloss, which is our nipple and lip balm that’s organic, nontoxic, sustainably packaged, and really, really thoughtfully curated to heal your nipples and lips with a mess-free application. The code is there for you to get 20% off. You can also pre-order a pee cup. If you are like me, you are on a fertility journey, and you are testing your ovulation strips. You are testing your pee strips and potentially Dutch hormone tests like I have been. I swear I’m collecting pee almost every day of the month. So that pee cup has been really, really handy. Before we finally now get into this episode, I want to just read to you a little bit about Kristin Revere.

Fun fact that Kristin and I both share in common is that she studied journalism in central Michigan. She has a master’s of management and marketing. She also was selected as one of the 50 most influential women in West Michigan by the Grand Rapids Business Journal in 2016 and 2022. She is an author, a speaker, an entrepreneur, and she started Gold Coast Doulas back in 2015 after having had a solo doula business. She has been featured in Rapid Growth Media and First Time Parent magazine. Gold Coast Doulas is also a certified B corporation.

I’m so excited for you guys to hear from Kristin today. So without further ado, I introduce Kristin Revere.

Kristin, welcome to the show.

Hi, Garrett! Thanks for having me on. I’m so excited to chat with you today.

I am, too. I had just shared with you that I was talking about cervical checks last night on TikTok, so this is very, very on the mind, to talk about all things birth today. But before we get into it, I’ll ask you the question that I ask all of our guests, which is who are you before labels, titles, or what someone could Google about you?

Such a deep question! I am a supporter of women. It’s my jam. That’s what I exist to do. Before I became a doula and educator, I worked in politics, and I fundraised. My passion was to get women to feel confident raising money and running for office because women often have to be asked to run and feel like they need this long bio of accomplishments, and of course, motherhood sets many women back from a career in politics. I was actually working on a governor’s race when I was pregnant with my first child, my daughter, and was trying to navigate hiring my expert team while busy working in politics and commuting. And I waited; I had my kids later in life. I was pregnant at 36 and 38.

Wow, there’s so much to unpack just in that answer. Before I go with where I want to go, I think it’s really cool to highlight that 36 and 38 birth because I’m 33 right now, and the conversations that some of my friends and I are having are – you know, I have some friends where the conversation is around, I had such a hard time with my first. I don’t know if I could do two kids, but I’m running out of time, and I have to make a decision by 35. Then there’s also friends who are single and 33, 34, 35, and they’re like, oh, it’s never going to happen for me. So I guess I’m just curious off the top of my head, did you have easy, healthy pregnancies?

I did have a textbook pregnancy with my first up until I got preeclampsia at 37 weeks. I worked with a nurse midwife group and delivered in the hospital, but through pregnancy, I had no issues up until I hit 37 weeks. Then I was on modified bedrest. I was going in and getting nonstress tests consistently. Then I was induced at 39 weeks. So my blood pressure had risen, and there were other concerns about preeclampsia. So I had an induction, and I had done all of this planning to have an unmedicated birth, intervention-free. I took Lamaze classes. I didn’t know about doulas with my first.

Okay. That was going to be my other question.

So I hired doulas with my second. But yes, so I went through a lot of the anxiety of being on bedrest and knowing that things were going to potentially need to happen. But I was very fortunate in that I’ve had very few interventions. My body responded to the membrane sweep, and I only had a cervical ripener and didn’t need Pitocin, didn’t need an epidural. It was, for a first baby, quick enough of an induction. But my daughter was not responding well, so there was always that talk and concern of a surgical birth. So that stress of trying different positions; if she doesn’t respond, then a Cesarean would have been needed. But I was fortunate in that we tried different positions. I had a nurse that helped me get a birthing ball up onto the bed. My daughter was posterior, so she flipped and all of a sudden I was ready to push, and my nurse midwife told me, oh, yeah, I had already called in for a Cesarean. I sort of defied the odds there. But I found out that the cord was wrapped around my daughter’s arm, and that was some of the reason for her not responding well on the monitors.

Wow. First of all, after I had a traumatic birth, I would walk around – and I still do, but for the first six months postpartum, every time I’d see a woman with kids, I’d look at her like, you did this too? Like, it’s so magical and crazy, and it’s a miracle how many times that everything ends up being okay, with all the different things that can happen. But one of the things that you said in your bio, you shared a story about being in politics. I think to the average joe, and this would have been me pre-kids, when I think political fundraising, I think business; I think masculine. And when I think doula – although I don’t even think I knew what a doula was until I was, like, 27 – I think, like, feminine, soft, flowy. But now that I know doulas, I’m like, they embody both, right? Because you have to be the backbone and communicate, be the structure behind the birthing person in so many ways, but they also know the sacred practice of birth. So I see the embodiment in you of both, the masculine and the feminine, and probably how that’s really served you. But what was the opening for you? What was the introduction where you decided to change career paths and become a doula?

It was a slow transition, Garrett. I had full time jobs the first three years of my agency. And as I started out as a doula, I joined a collective. I was teaching classes through them. I went on my own, and then started an agency in 2015. I always had a business partner up until recently. My partner and I divided up tasks. I was taking birth clients and teaching, as well as running the business. I worked in a political communications firm that gave me a lot of flexibility for the first portion of owning the business and then transitioned to a nonprofit and did some fundraising for them at a women’s business center. And then my business was making enough where I felt, instead of putting money into the business, I could pay myself.

Wow. I think so many women – not just women, but people – get inspired, you have something that’s life-changing or insightful or inspirational, but there are those initial hurdles of, well, how is this going to change my life? And it sounds like you had these steps along the way to support you financially and support your family and not have to go all or nothing right from the get-go. But I can imagine that it’s also an identity change. And there’s also the self-belief that – I mean, I will always have a doula with my future births. I can’t wait to birth again. And I don’t think I personally have it in me to be a doula myself. So what was it that made you realize, like, I can do this, and I really want to do this?

Yes. So after having doulas myself, I didn’t necessarily want to be a doula. I really loved teaching these pregnancy and childbirth classes. And I thought that would be a hobby for me, and I could help people have more understanding of their options in birth and the postnatal phase by being an educator. And my students asked me to become their doula, so I decided to go and take a training in Florida, a four-day training, and I started teaching. I should go back a step. After my son was born, I signed up for a training in pregnancy, took my whole family for a four-day training, and then started teaching immediately after I was trained. So I had this long relationship. My classes were eight weeks, and so my students trusted me a couple hours a day for eight weeks, and so they really – you know, having worked with a doula, birth is so intimate. They wanted someone they trusted. So I took the training and thought I might take one of my students occasionally on. And I wasn’t certain. I don’t love hospitals. I wasn’t certain that I would enjoy the work. And I attended my first birth, and anything that I had fears of, whether it’s like blood or fluids or just being in the hospital, anything that could have happened, did, and I had no issues. It was all about being in the moment and supporting women where they’re at and working within the system to make change rather than being – I want to say activist is the best word to say, that some doulas take that role on. I wanted to work within the system and get to know administrators and make subtle changes that way and work as partners with the health care team. And so in starting the agency, we started small. We had six doulas and then my business partner at the time, who later moved out of state, was the first HypnoBirthing educator in Michigan. She’s a former labor and delivery nurse. So we had some of the understanding of the hospital system. And we both brought our own clients into the business because they wanted to hire us again and we had a lot of repeats. So it was a slow transition. Now my agency has 26 contractors between educators, lactation, sleep consultants, birth doulas, day and overnight postpartum doulas. So it’s much bigger now! But yeah, I wasn’t certain that I would enjoy the work because as you said, politics is masculine. Before I worked in politics, I sold advertising. I worked in yellow pages, magazine, radio. So I was used to working with men, being in male-dominated industries. And I am a driver, a D personality, so it is not the typical doula, but it suits me well for running the business, and I did find that I needed the appreciation that I got for working in a unique field. I loved the excitement of campaigns. I worked on many campaigns, so that adrenaline rush. But you also get that with birth, whether it’s your own or supporting a birth. There are so many unknowns. I found that I needed to get respect in the business community because I went from working with a lot of men and in the professional sectors to being a woman doing women’s work, and doulas weren’t really known. They were thought of as being hippies who weren’t wearing suits. So I started joining chambers and getting back into the business world and getting my agency in particular, but doulas on a broader scale, being known as part of the business community. I am vice chair of my business association in the neighborhood that my office is located in. It’s called East Town in Grand Rapids. I’m co-chair of that. And very involved in the chamber and Local First. I’ve tried to get a different level of credibility in the doula space.

I think it’s really important because like you said, so many people either don’t know what a doula is or they think it’s some hippie thing. And I had the same kind of association with it when my friend said, I’m going to go to a birthing center and I’m going to hire a doula. I was like, oh, good for you. And it wasn’t until I was pregnant, and this was in 2020 and 2021. I was getting a lot of inbound messages for my podcast with – just because I was pregnant and posting about it on Instagram with birth educators and doulas and groups, and I’m listening to them, interviewing them, learning about their resources, and I’m like, wait a second. I think I need one of these. I think I need to educate myself. We can get into this in a minute, but even though I had those resources and I had a doula with me, my birth still was a series of a lot of unfortunate events until luckily my son was healthy. And I think there’s just so much work to be done in this space, and it sounds like you are doing it, to help people understand that this is just part, I think, how for thousands of years, women had support people at their births. We kind of took some turns away from that. And that kind of leads me to the question of – you know, I was lucky, I believe and I feel, that I was podcasting and having these people reach out to me because most of the focus of a first time mom is the nursery, the registry, the baby outfits, the maternity photos. And it’s all so exciting for sure. But it’s not necessarily, what are my rights at the hospital? What can I say no to? What do I want my birth plan to look like, and who can support me in that? So when you were talking about how in your eight-week courses, these people were obviously connecting with you and wanting you to be their doula – were they first-time moms? Or were they second-time moms who had maybe a less than amazing first experience, and how are you reaching those first time moms now in your practice?

Great question. My classes were an equal mix of first and second time moms. And I even had some third and fourths. So either the birth didn’t go as planned, or they wanted connection. The class wasn’t just a childbirth class. There was a lot of discussions about relationships, how those will change, bringing partners into that class. It was called Sacred Pregnancy, which I no longer teach, but I now teach a Comfort Measures for Labor class, so it’s very couple-involved. It still involves communication of what their needs are, what their thoughts for their birth would be, how they plan to make choices for medical and nonmedical pain relief. And then we have our comprehensive HypnoBirthing class. So it’s a bit – I’ve definitely gone a bit more mainstream than the Sacred Pregnancy conversations because it was so intimate, talking about everything from body image to nutrition, bringing in different expert speakers during the time and fitness. We brought in a prenatal belly dance instructor and talked about movement and getting your baby in a good position. So it was quite lovely. It was a unique connection, and I’m still friends with many of the students to this day. And some of them contributed to my book that is coming out on Mother’s Day.

So talk to us about the book, because obviously, you have this remarkable journey and experience teaching these classes and being present at so many births and having so many doulas in your agency that are also a part of people’s births, which I really feel like is, again, such a sacred thing to be a part of ushering humans into the planet. So what inspired you, on top of everything you’re doing, to write it? What was the moment that was conceived?

So it all began with my former business partner, Alyssa, who is my co-author of Supported. And she and I created an online birth and baby prep course called Becoming A Mother in the early stages of the pandemic. That was when everything turned virtual, and all of our classes went from in person to virtual. Our clients were feeling isolated because women couldn’t gather in person at that time. So we decided it was time to create the course, and the course is broken up into two parts. Alyssa happens to be a sleep consultant. Both of us are newborn care specialists as well as postpartum doulas, and I’m a childbirth educator and birth doula. So I taught the first half of the course, which still exists, on pregnancy and birth prep. Alyssa facilitates the newborn care end of things, postnatal planning, and gets into feeding and sleep, and we have live monthly calls.

So we had all of this content, but not everyone can afford our course, or maybe they are very late in their pregnancy and they don’t have time to go through all six modules with the expert videos. We have experts in the course: car seat safety technicians, mental health therapists, physical therapists, pelvic floor therapists, understanding all of the birth and baby options. The book is the same way. But again, more accessible and affordable. And we will have an audiobook version. There’s an eversion. Then there’s the hardcover and paperback, so people can consume it however they like to read their books or listen to them, if they’re an audio book listener.

And it launches Mother’s Day?

Yes, it launches on Mother’s Day. It’s so fitting; we’re birthing our book after a couple years of the process. We recorded the book ourselves instead of hiring an expert. It was a labor of love, for sure. We just want people to know their options, because if you don’t understand everyone that you can bring onto your birth and baby team, then you don’t get a repeat of that birth or that maternity leave and postnatal recovery time.

And that impacts everything. The mental health experience even with a one-year-old, right, because that first year is so hard. I still joke that my son is the worst sleeper in America, and he is three. He hasn’t slept through the night more than seven nights in a row since he was born. And so we’re just always like, all right, it’s the eighth night. Here we go. But I digress.

With writing a book, it is such, like you said, a labor of love, and it’s a creative process, for sure, which is shifting into that state of consciousness – I don’t know, maybe you can, but I couldn’t just pencil into my calendar, now it’s time to write. Sometimes it’s in the morning. Sometimes it’s late at night when I actually feel that creative energy. But it’s also this dance where you’re writing with someone else. So was it Alyssa or was it you? Were you both on the same page, or was one person more kind of leading the charge of writing and deciding to go for it?

I encouraged Alyssa, certainly, and I do have a journalism background. She’s also an excellent writer, and my husband happens to be a publisher and editor, so he did the first edit of the book before we sent it to the publisher to edit. For the process, we worked independently, gathered stories together from clients, so every chapter has a birth/baby/feeding/sleep story in it from clients that we’ve worked with.

And it’s called Supported?

It’s called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. And then since doulas are not medical, we brought in medical experts to speak on topics that we weren’t qualified to. I have a pediatrician that contributed to the newborn procedure chapter, and then a mental health therapist who specializes in perinatal mood disorders and contributed to that section. Then I have a yoga instructor who is trained in so many fitness modalities. She gets into fitness options and restrictions to use based on the different choices for exercise in pregnancy and the postnatal phase.

Wow. You’ve just named so many things that it’s like, after having been through it, I see it. I get it. I can kind of see how all of the dots are connected when, again, most people aren’t looking at that. Or maybe someone’s a little more focused on nutrition because of their own unique challenges. But is there something that you think is most overlooked on the perinatal journey over the years that you’re seeing most people forgetting about? Or if only they focused a little more on this, it would make the experience better?

I know that you mentioned earlier in our conversation about the fact that so much planning is done in setting up the perfect registry, setting the nursery up, having beautiful photos, planning for showers. But it’s really planning for your birth, and in my opinion, the postnatal planning, maternity leave planning, figuring out childcare options, how do you want to parent together is even more important than planning for your birth. And so we get into budgeting and even the concept for our course came out of a presentation we gave at a bridal expo because we wanted to reach families earlier when they’re just talking about starting a family and showing them what doulas are all about and understanding your options. So we compare the process in the book and in the course to planning for other life events, like all of the experts you bring in when you build a home or when you plan your wedding. What are your priorities? If it’s a wedding, is it food? Are you foodies? Is that your number one focus and the core of your budget? Or is it flowers or photography? And then for birthing baby, is sleep your biggest focus, and do you want to hire an overnight postpartum doula or a newborn care specialist or as your infant gets older, hire a sleep consultant? Or is your focus having that support in pregnancy? I work with a lot of athletes as a birth doula, and they want to be able to run a marathon again. So they’re going to see a pelvic floor physical therapist. They’re going to do things to make sure that they can get back to performance once, of course, their provider approves them to exercise again. So it definitely can vary from individual to individual. Is this baby number five? How will this new pregnancy impact the other kids? There are just so many issues. Grandparents are involved in childcare because we’re in a childcare crisis right now. So we have a grandparents class at Gold Coast Doulas to prepare grandparents for – even if it’s only the occasional caregiving, because so much has changed. With sleep, feeding, baby gear, car seats. It can be uncomfortable for our clients and for parents to relay all of the changes and it puts you in this sticky conversation, so they will often gift their family members this grandparents class, and then we come in as experts and show them all the changes, tell them about babyproofing their home, all of the things.

I love that. I was just thinking, my parents had me in their 20s, and I’m having kids in my 30s. My husband is in his 40s, and his parents had him in their 20s. So there’s a big gap, and even just putting my feet in their shoes, if 40 years from now or 30 years from now, my son is like, hey, I need you to watch this baby, I’d be like, what do I do? Because I already forget the nap windows for a newborn or whatever. I have a three-year-old. I can’t imagine that pressure. And unfortunately, my parents don’t live very close, and so they’re not as hands on, but I love that you’re having those conversations with people and reaching them earlier because it almost feels I don’t want to say that it feels like you’re trying to pull one over on young women, but it’s like you get the bridal shower and you get the wedding and you get the bachelorette and the baby shower and the maternity photos and it’s all this focus on you and you’re so beautiful. Then all of a sudden, no one cares about you and you are bleeding out, leaking everywhere. You feel like you got hit by numerous waves and you’re drowning, but you have to keep a baby alive, and not even knowing what those options are – again, I only felt like I had – so my support, just for listeners who are maybe thinking of options, and you’ve mentioned so many, but to give an example, because of the podcast – the company is no longer around, but I interviewed a founder of a company. They sold, or something happened. But they were kind of like a hub to schedule those things and try to get it to run through insurance. So I had a lactation consultant teed up to come to my house the day after I got home from the hospital, and just knowing that someone was coming to my house was so nice. And they had mentioned in the podcast that there’s such thing as a postpartum doula, and I had never heard of the term. They were like, kind of like a babysitter on steroids. They’re newborn experts. They’re going to help you with things. And so I actually was like, oh, I’m not going to need that. And I didn’t hire one until I hit kind of a rock bottom, and I had an amazing postpartum doula come actually all the way at 11 weeks postpartum. But she kind of helped pick up some pieces for me.

Those were my two things that we decided to invest in, and in hindsight, I wish I had had help with sleep because I had a four-day birth and I didn’t sleep for four days, and then I got sent home with a baby who had equally experienced trauma and wasn’t sleeping, so it was just a lot of sleep deprivation. It sounds like your book is a big reminder to people that it doesn’t have to be miserable. It doesn’t have to be this thing, and if we are so structured and scheduled and booked and busy in our culture, why aren’t we applying that structure and strategy to our births?

Exactly. And the postnatal phase. I mean, people are all about meal trains, but as you mentioned, during pregnancy, it’s all about the mother, and then all of a sudden it’s all about the baby. So if you get visitors, they want to hold your baby. They’re bringing gifts for the baby. And then the mother feels left behind. You had experienced some PTSD from your birth, had some trauma. I’m sure your friends and family didn’t want to talk through that with you. And so if you don’t have a postpartum doula like you did or your birth doula who comes for that follow up visit to process, then you’re left waiting for that six-week appointment with your provider when you only have ten minutes to talk because everything else is the exam.

Yeah. It’s such a whirlwind, and that’s why I hesitated for a long time. I mean, I shared my birth story pretty soon while it was still pretty raw with my husband on the podcast, and I don’t regret it. It’s our most downloaded episode, and I think it was cool to record it close to. There wasn’t a lot of processing. It was more just like we captured what we could remember. But I was scared to share a lot only because I’m not an expert, and I don’t want to fearmonger and I don’t want to share things that are so specific because everyone’s birth is different, and at the same time, the more I’m kind of opening up, the more I think it’s at least just getting people to talk about what they can access, whether it’s a book or it’s a full blown course. It’s so important to share that message and I guess one of the things that I think a lot of my friends are kind of – it goes back to the idea that doulas are hippies and you have to have a home birth. What percentage of your clients are hospital versus home birth, and how do you kind of talk through that decision with your clients or through your course?

So at Gold Coast, we mainly work in the hospital, and that’s honestly where I feel we’re needed most. We do certainly support our clients wherever they choose to give birth, as long as they have a midwife with them. We don’t attend unassisted births, of course. But we do have some clients who choose to birth at home, but it’s not in the budget for everyone to hire a doula and to pay out of pocket and hire a midwife. So part of the reason that we work so few home births – I would say it’s maybe 15% of the work that we do is in the home. And the rest is in the hospital. We do have a birth center in my community that will be opening soon, but we haven’t had one in quite some time, so that isn’t an option. Our hospital has some birthing rooms, one of our larger hospitals in my area, so that is an option for people who want an unmedicated birth, and certified nurse midwives do attend those.

I have a couple questions around the financial piece of this and the future. Before I ask those questions, I have this desire to someday home birth, but more than that, I want to almost reclaim the hospital space after everything that went wrong in mine, and I joke that – you know, I did birth during COVID. But when I went in, the first thing they did, besides COVID test me, was start to put a port for an IV in my arm, just the second I walked in. And some people don’t like needles. I’m pretty brave around that and it doesn’t bother me, but what was kind of ironic in telling about the way the journey went was the phlebotomist or nurse that came in couldn’t get a vein, and she was pushing around so bad that I had blood running down my arm. So she’s like, let me try the other one. She did the same thing, and then she left me with the blood without bandaging me, and said, hold on, I’ll be right back and I’ll get someone. And my doula walked in while I was unbandaged with that, and she was like, what? What is happening? And so, I mean, obviously, we could start by maybe saying, oh, I don’t really necessarily want that. Can we wait until we at least do the cervical ripeners to put anything in, you know? But what are some of the more powerful births in hospitals stories that you’ve had? Or what are some of your big – if people want fewer interventions, I guess is the best way to phrase this, what are your tips for that? Aside from having a doula there or things that maybe your doula can say for you?

Or aside from having a home birth, which I love attending home births. They’re beautiful, and water births are an option. So for me when I teach Comfort Measures or I’m talking to my birth doula clients, I talk about just understanding your options. Again, even if it’s your second baby, taking a comprehensive childbirth class like HypnoBirthing or Lamaze, something that’s out of hospital. Because the hospital classes, unless they have a longer element, those weekend ones tend to focus more on understanding interventions, how to be a patient, doing the hospital tour included. There’s not enough time to really understand everything your body is going through and to have that partner involvement the way you could with HypnoBirthing or gentle birth or a Lamaze class. So doing that preparation. If my clients want to breastfeed, taking a breastfeeding class before. Or if they struggled with breastfeeding the first time, taking a class as a refresher. And then understanding hiring an expert like a doula is a fantastic way because doulas understand all of your options in a hospital. If it’s not medically necessary, you could delay or decline. What tools you have in your hospital room, like peanut balls, birthing stools, birthing balls, getting in the tub as a way to relax or to distract from any discomfort in labor. Walking the halls. You know, all of those options. Where the heat packs are and how to slow down potential interventions and ask questions. So we do go over birth plans or birth preference sheets and the importance of making sure your provider is on the same page as you during pregnancy and then communicating what your needs are to your nurse if you don’t have a doula. And doulas – you know, at least at Gold Coast, we support whatever our clients choose to do. So if our client originally wanted an unmedicated birth and then all of a sudden wants to look at different pain management options, we will support that, but we can give them the risks and benefits and alternatives to any potential intervention that is not medically urgent at that moment. If labor stalls, breaking the bag of water. What might be done – you know, could we try some positions and wait an hour if baby is doing really well, or are they wanting to have baby sooner and fine with the fact that if they don’t have an epidural yet, that it might feel more intense with having the water broken?

Yeah, there’s so many choice points that, like you said, you can have the birth preference sheet and in the moment – you said that earlier. It’s about being in the moment with them. There’s go left or go right. I’m sure it’s different everywhere, but the practice I ended up at – I started in Boston, moved to New Hampshire during my pregnancy. You see every doctor, and I had nine weeks to try to meet 17 doctors. There was one that I said I just don’t want him to deliver my baby, and of course, that’s who showed up. But the last appointment I had, a woman saw that I had a doula on my team, and I had to, like, fight with the hospital and talk to, basically, the second highest up to get a doula allowed because they were saying nobody allowed.

During the pandemic, right.

They ended up letting me, but when she saw that on my sheet, she walked in, and without asking me my preferences or what I wanted – because you said, you know, what is your relationship with the provider – this woman walked in and she lectured me about how she was type A as well and that I should let go of my standards and that you never know what’s going to happen, that I don’t get to have a crunchy experience. And I said, well, do you want to know what my choices are? She just lectured me.

She just assumed because you had a doula.

She just assumed, exactly. And the Cliff notes version is I ended up getting an epidural, and then it ended up being one of the 30% that don’t work. So I felt everything. Which is – you know, technically, I got what I wanted in that sense.

But you can’t move without assistance with an epidural, so if you’re feeling everything, you can’t walk around or get on a birthing ball.

Right. You’re stuck. And what happened was eventually the fetal ejection reflex, which was really cool to experience at the last hour. But going back to kind of the choice points, having someone there that’s not your partner, your husband, your wife, that can be that neutral but supportive and experienced person to help you with those decisions – it felt so nice, even though, again, I had a lot of things that were challenging. I believe everything happens for a reason. My husband didn’t get it at first, why we were hiring one, and he’ll say to this day, your birth was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. And the doula was there for him, too. And it is a privilege, kind of bringing it back to the expenses, and my doula was the self-proclaimed cheapest doula in New Hampshire because she really believes in access and all of that. But one of the questions I have is how do you see the future of birthing in America going? Because I joke that the epidural I got that didn’t work was an $11,000 thing on the line item. The price even after insurance was still very expensive. But as you mentioned, paying out of pocket for a midwife and a doula and whatever else assistance you might need at your home is also a consideration. So do you think that our country is waking up to creating better maternal healthcare realities? What do you think about the future of birth?

Yes. I mean, there’s so many directions I could go with that. I do feel like there is more understanding of the benefits of doula support, even under the insurer aspect of things, because continuous support from a doula is shown to not only reduce interventions, which interventions up end costing more, but also increase satisfaction. Nurses and hospitals are busy. They’re in and out. They’re responsible for the life of the mother and the baby. Where doulas are responsible for the emotional support, the physical support, and giving evidence-based information. So there’s just a different role. But when I started as a doula, it was basically self-pay only. And in recent years – let’s say the last four at least – health savings and flex spending have easily covered birth doulas, as well as postpartum doulas in some instances. And now a lot of employer-based self-funded plans have doula coverage. So Carrot Fertility is the biggest one I’ve seen that covers both birth and postpartum. There’s also Progeny. There’s some healthcare sharing programs – many of them are Christian-based – that cover a certain amount of a birth doula. And then some companies are creating their own plans. We worked with a construction firm in our area and helped them add doulas to their benefits. So that’s been a passion project of not only my own but also Alyssa since we got into this work, making it more accessible. And then, of course, Medicaid coverage for birth doulas has expanded. It used to be a handful of states, and now Michigan has had Medicaid for about a year and a half now. So that is an option for individuals. And I see general insurance down the road covering birth doulas.

Wow. I mean, I believe it. I think, to your point, reducing interventions, which would lower the cost, and then hospital satisfaction – you know, satisfaction with nurses, better overall experiences – I think those are enough for me to think it’s a no-brainer.

Right. And there are hospital-based doula programs, as well. There are definitely more options than when I got into the field.

That’s good to know. I like hearing that, as well. One question I meant to ask you earlier, and then I want to circle back to your book before we close. Our connection to each other is through this Hey Mama group online, and you mentioned that when you started in that group, you were, you said, a fertility and something –

Pregnancy connector. So there are all these different connectors in Hey Mama. There’s a podcast connector, PR, health and fitness, business. So I was the expert in pregnancy and fertility. I would initiate conversations. I posted weekly. I did spotlights on different individuals who are active in the community and then attended meetings with all of the different connectors monthly for the year that I took that role on.

Got it. So the reason I ask is because you said the word fertility, and we haven’t spoken about that. I just was curious if your work with your families or your patients circles you back to fertility, only because I’m on a secondary infertility journey. I’ve been trying now for 26 months. I didn’t start trying until I was done breastfeeding. And I’m kind of falling into that unexplained. And I’m curious if you’ve seen that with any of your clients and if it is connected to how their first birth went or anything like that.

Absolutely. There are fertility doulas. I’m not one, but during the pandemic, I helped facilitate a fertility support group for women across the US with a mental health therapist under a nonprofit group called Mothership. And so I got to hear women’s stories. And then I had clients that I either personally worked with or that were in our agency that had struggles with secondary infertility, wanting to plan their family and have kids close together, and then it wasn’t as easy. Maybe it was breastfeeding related or getting back on birth control for a while and then wanting to expand the family. So I often give referrals both locally and across the US for different practitioners, whether it’s a functional medicine doctor or a doctor of naturopathy, in addition to seeing your physician or suggesting going to a fertility clinic. Looking at gut health, sleep; stress can be a big factor. All of the different options you have, whether it’s going through a fertility clinic and that process or looking at surrogacy or adoption or however our clients want to expand their families. So the book does touch on support for fertility and surrogacy and different groups both in person and certainly especially virtual support groups that can be accessed. Many of them are free or different fertility specialists.

Amazing. I mean, it makes sense, of course. You’re so in the space, and it’s all always connected, and it just sounds like you’re very entrenched, in the best way, in all things birth and the cycle of life. And I think it’s amazing to meet you and really learn more about your work because it’s so needed in our world. I mean, not only are we in a fertility crisis in our country, but we don’t have the best maternal health care right now. Your work is just so imperative for our nation. Really, really, really excited for you to launch this book. I know you’ve already said the title once, but if you could say the title, where it’s launching. I know some authors have separate websites for it, or they’re launching straight to Amazon. Talk to us about where people can find it on Mother’s Day and anywhere else that you personally want to be found.

So my book is Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. This is an advance copy, and it’s basically going to be on Amazon. There will be an ebook option and then a hardcover and a paperback. The launch is Mother’s Day for those three options. By mid-June, we’ll be on Audible and other audio versions. And because I decided to not do pre-sales, it’s been challenging to get my book into book and baby stores, but I have a big goal of getting into maternity and baby stores across the country. So we’re working on some of that in Michigan right now. I do have a website for the book. It’s www.supportedbook.com. And then my website for the doula agency is www.goldcoastdoulas.com. The book can also be found on that page, as well as the Becoming A Mother course. The website for the course is www.thebecomingcourse.com.

Okay. Amazing. I am so excited for this launch and your book, and congratulations on birthing again.

Yes! Thank you, Garrett. I really appreciate the support, and I’m excited to get it out into the world, and I hope that it’s the shower gift that everyone brings their friends or family members to help them to better birth. And also the postnatal preparation, especially. Understanding all of those options and who they might want to bring on their team is, to me, so important.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this with us. Hopefully, everyone can just scroll down in their show notes and go find your book.

Thank you!

IMPORTANT LINKS

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Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

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The benefits of doula support with Anne Wallen: Podcast Episode #238

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Anne Wallen discuss how doulas can impact the birth and postnatal experience. Anne also describes her doula training and education programs at MaternityWise International.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with Anne Wallen today. Anne is the director of MaternityWise International, and our conversation today is going to be all about doulas, since she trains so many doulas and also works as a doula herself. Welcome, Anne!

Hi! Thank you so much for having me! I love it that we can talk birth and that I can be on your podcast. What an honor! Thank you so much.

And I am honored to have you on the show! I’d like to get into a bit about your bio. You’re a respected figure in women’s health with over 30 years of experience and a leading voice on global change in maternity care, particularly for those at greatest risk. You’ve continued to educate and empower birth professionals in more than 20 countries, contribute to a variety of curriculums, and shape the future of maternal health through your impactful role as a speaker and mentor.

So, yes, thank you for all of the years! It’s amazing that you’re still working as a doula to really be able to meet the changing needs of doulas that you train.

Yeah, it’s so crazy. Sometimes you get into this work and you realize, oh, I’ve definitely been called into this. It’s what I’m meant to be doing. It’s what I’m supposed to be doing, what I’m here for. And I definitely feel that way. Even though I’ve had a few other jobs along the way, they really even just added to my skill set as a doula and as a teacher. But I feel really passionate about the fact that we, just as women, oftentimes we really crave that community, that support from one another. And especially in American culture, you know, we’re really oftentimes far away from each other. We’re far away from our family. And when I say really far away, I don’t just mean maybe somebody in a different state, but we’re not living in this communal format anymore. We don’t have the village where you can walk to your friend’s house, your mother-in-law’s house, your sister’s house, whatever. Most of the time, we’re pretty far apart. So just supporting one another looks different, and thank goodness for Facetime and phones and texts and everything, but it’s still not quite the same as being there in person and being able to give someone a hug and put your arm around them or cook them a meal or whatever it is that they need in that moment. But supporting families – it’s so multifaceted. It can be so complicated. But it’s also really, really natural. Like, we crave to do it for one another, and we definitely recognize when we’re in a vulnerable position like early motherhood, like pregnancy, and those early parenting days. We definitely feel it. We definitely feel the need for support and for help and all those beautiful things that a doula brings. Not the judgment, not the unsolicited advice, but the actual support and that loving, nurturing – I even like to say we’re modeling. We’re a role model to other family members of how to treat the family that’s growing or the mother or the baby, even. How to interact with them, because we don’t always see healthy examples.

Exactly. We don’t have the emotional ties that a partner or a parent does to our client. We have a professional relationship, and yes, we get to know them and care for them, but we don’t have a vested interest, where I know with my family, they had their own personal experiences with, say, breastfeeding, and I don’t want to say agenda, but just how they felt things should go for me. And when I wanted to make different decisions in parenting or the type of birth that I wanted, it was met with a bit of resistance. Not all doulas are the same, but you mentioned judgment free, so just not going in with an agenda of, oh, my client needs to have an unmedicated birth or needs to do attachment parenting. Whatever it might be; or feeding a particular way.

Yeah, and some of these can end up being such hot topics. And also, science changes, and things that we used to do sometimes are not helpful or even might end up being detrimental now. So even though grannies might have really great intentions, they can still give advice that can be harmful, not knowing that we now know better, so we should do better. You’ll probably hear occasionally someone say, well, I was formula-fed and I turned out okay, or I’m a Cesarean baby, and I turned out okay. And that’s not really helpful. It’s very invalidating when you have a mom who’s wanting to do something different; when they’re wanting to breastfeed or they’re wanting to give birth naturally or even at home. There’s a lot of not just judgment but so many opinions kind of flying around and almost hurt feelings when you don’t choose what they think you should choose. So it can be really tricky to navigate.

Yes, and as you mentioned, things change. With technology and all of the gadgets for feeding and sleep and really keeping up to date on recalls – it’s like a full time job for our postpartum doula team to know the safest options for our clients. So grandparents are often caregivers now because we’re in a childcare crisis, and feeding is so different. Safe sleep and again, products they might have used are not in use anymore. And certainly car seat safety is a whole different thing. I know when my parents had issues with navigating the modern car seats and understanding all of the changes in modern parenting compared to how they parented me.

Right. And speaking of safety, a lot of times, we’re really motivated – our culture is very motivated by fear, and so we have this – just like a high priority on or a high value on safety, so if a person thinks, oh, well, this is the safest option, they’re going to go with that, versus when it comes to birth, there’s a lot of unknown. There’s so much mystery still around it, even though we can kind of physiologically explain what happens, right, but each individual birth goes its own way and the hormone and chemical makeup of a person’s birth experience can be super unique to them. So there’s a lot of unknowns. There’s not a lot of ways to kind of predict or create a safety plan around how birth is going to go. You just have to – I always say it’s 10% plan, 90% crap shoot, right? So you’re just going to have to flow with it and trust that your body knows what it’s doing and trust that your body and your baby can accomplish a safe birth. And a lot of times, fear and that mystery piece kind of get in the way of people being able to – and it might be grandmas; it could be partners; it could be friends, sisters, whoever’s kind of in the ear of the birthing person – installing this or instilling this idea that there’s danger around every corner and you’ve got to be overly conservative about really everything. This is how we’re now in kind of this induction crisis in the United States. We try to – we think, anyway – that managing – they call it active management – that managing the process is the only way to safely navigate the process. Unfortunately, it’s quite the opposite. Managing the process creates an unnatural scenario that ends up requiring more interventions because you’re creating complications that didn’t have to exist and then you’re managing those complications with more interventions, and you get into that snowball, which maybe if you just left it all alone in the beginning and let it happen, you wouldn’t have encountered all of these – I call them detours you have to take. It’s like we know where we’re trying to get to, but sometimes medical intervention turns into a detour where now we’re going to have to deal with this little side road. We’re going to get there eventually, but it might take us longer and it might be a little more of a bumpy ride. And that’s the beauty of having a doula by your side is that if your doula is well trained, she’s going to know how to navigate those detours, and she’s going to know also how to help you avoid them altogether. And that comes with preparation ahead of what I call “the big day,” the day that you’re in labor where it’s going to end with a baby in your arms. We call that the big day, but there might be a lot of starts in the beginning. Little bits of labor here and there before you actually get to the big day, but a doula who can help you prepare, get educated, know your options ahead of time – you’re going to feel less under pressure to make decisions on the big day. You can feel a little bit more confident in your ability, also, when you have more preparation and you understand what’s going to happen to you and you understand what to expect at your chosen birth location. Basically, there’s less surprises, even though birth is full of surprises. There’s just less of them, or there’s a little more predictability to what’s about to happen and you can anticipate how to navigate, how things are changing and developing within the birth process and with less fear. The more you know, the less you have to fear it, and I feel like fear is just such a big motivator to go ahead and do certain things that aren’t necessarily the right timing or even necessary at all. But in our society, anyway, we’re so afraid. We’re just really afraid of our own bodies, and that makes me sad.

And as you mentioned with preparation, a doula can certainly give resources, so evidence-based articles and information, to have conversations with your provider during pregnancy, create some of your preferences together at that prenatal visit, and certainly know options for comprehensive childbirth classes, whether they’re in or outside of the hospital, ranging from HypnoBirthing to Bradley gentle birth and Lamaze. There are so many options to really understand, as you said, your body, what options, which choices you have for pain relief and interventions that may come up so it’s not all unknown the day you go into labor, so you understand different things that, in a nonemergent situation, you’re able to ask for.

Right, and we use the acronym BRAINS. You’ve probably heard of that. B stands for benefits. What benefit does a particular intervention have for me? What risks might be involved? A stands for alternatives. So are there any alternatives? Is there any other way that we can kind of get to where we want to go without having to use that as a different option? I is for intuition. What is your gut telling you? Do you have some red flags? Do you not feel at peace? Because if you don’t feel at peace, don’t go for it. Wait until you’ve got enough information, you’ve got that peace before you go for it. This is given that you would have enough time to make these kind of decisions and have these kinds of discussions. In a situation that’s emergent, obviously, you’re not going to necessarily sift through all of the BRAINS scenario. But then there’s also N. What if you do nothing, or if you say not now? I always tell my clients, don’t create a yes/no, black and white, all or nothing kind of scenario for yourself. Just say not now because maybe in an hour or two, you’re going to change your mind and you’ll want to do this or that. Or maybe in five hours, it’s going to be necessary to do this thing, whatever it is. So just be open to it, and just say “not now.” I’m not feeling like I should do that right now.

And then we always add S to the end, S being, give us some space. Space to think about it; space to talk about it; space and time so that, again, there’s not a decision being made under pressure, right? Because that feels like bullying, and we don’t want – there’s no place in this experience for bullying. There shouldn’t be pressure or anyone feeling like they’re kind of coerced into making a decision. Yeah, if there’s time to have this discussion and there’s not an emergency going on, then yeah, there’s no reason why we can’t have a little space to kind of think through this, in between contractions, because that’s another thing. It’s like, okay, you kind of feel like I’m under the gun because there’s a contraction coming. I’ve got to give a yes or no right now. Well, actually, no, you don’t. You can think it through after this contraction, and maybe after the next five contractions. You can continue this conversation before you make a decision. Asking for space. These are things I teach my client families so that they understand in the moment, they don’t have to feel like – well, for example, if I haven’t prepared my client well enough ahead of time and I haven’t really gone over BRAINS with them for each specific scenario – let’s say it’s breaking their water or whatever. If my client turns to me in labor and says, “What do I do, Anne?” Then I feel like, wow, I did not prepare them enough. Because they shouldn’t have to ask me what to do.

Unless they’re in the thick of it and they can’t recall anything you talked about and it’s all, like, out the window.

Sure, and when that happens, I do just turn it back onto them and say, how do you feel? What do you feel like you need to do right now? And reminding them that the first answer that your mind gives you when you ask yourself a question, that’s your intuition. So if I say to myself, should I break my water right now? I already know the answer before I finish even asking the question. I already know what my mind, my body, my spirit is telling me, yes or no. So giving them also that confidence and just the internal power – because we’ve kind of taken the power away from moms when we started giving birth in hospitals. We kind of created this authority hierarchy, and mom’s at the bottom when she really should be at the top. So just reminding her that this is her body, this is her journey, this is her decision, and giving her back her power to make a choice versus feeling like she’s just at the mercy of whoever’s in the room making these decisions for her, about her. That’s inappropriate, right? And in any other situation, we would never treat someone this way. We wouldn’t walk down the street and say, oh, look, I think you should go into labor today. I’m going to break your water. We couldn’t do that. It would never be appropriate. It would never be appropriate in any other circumstances, so why, walking into a hospital, does it suddenly become appropriate for us to give up all of our rights and not have any say in the game plan? Again, this is where preparation comes in because if you don’t have any kind of preparation, you’re going to feel like I have to lean on the expertise of these people because I don’t know anything. That’s a big piece of it.

And there’s so much evidence that regardless of birth outcomes, having that continuous support from a doula, not only during labor itself, but throughout pregnancy, does increase satisfaction. So as you had mentioned, Anne, it’s feeling like you are making informed decisions every step of the way. Again, unless it’s an emergency, and instead of birth just happening to you and feeling like things are not in your control at all, then there’s a lot of remorse. There can be so many feelings after the birth that are just challenging to navigate.

Well, and the definition of trauma is when something is happening to you and you’re so scared, you’re so terrified, and you feel helpless. You feel out of control, whether it’s of your circumstances, of your own body, how you’re being treated. And you’re put in this position where it’s a moment of almost terror, right? And so we look at a lot of post-pregnancy, postnatal maternal mood disorders, and it’s like, you’ve got anxiety. You’ve got depression. You’ve got OCD. And I can’t help but look at it and say, how much of this is related to how she was treated during birth, right? So it there a sprinkling of PTSD in there that’s kind of root cause of all these other symptoms that we’re seeing? I mean, if I’m anxious or if I’m OCD and I’m trying to control my environment and I’m getting some paranoia mixed in there or overly cautious and overly concerned and overly doing all the things to make sure my baby is safe and that I’m safe – that actually looks like a trauma response because if you’ve been traumatized, what do you do? You try to control your environment. You’re in protection survival mode. And most people do – if you love your baby with all your being, they’re going to be kind of the object of your obsession at that point and protecting them and making sure everything’s okay with them, and you’re going to question every little thing that seems maybe out of the ordinary when it could, under another circumstance, if you haven’t had your confidence taken away from you, you’re going to look at your baby and just say, oh, we’re in the realm of normal, right? But if you’re an anxious mom, you’re going to look at your baby and say, something’s wrong. This might be in the realm of normal, but looks like we’re outside of the realm of normal and not really seeing things for what they are because the anxiety is the lens you’re seeing everything through. And so, again, too, this is another way that doulas can help because processing trauma takes time. It takes interaction.

I spoke at the Congress on Children in San Antonio several years back. I don’t know, seven, eight years back. And my whole project, basically, was about how touch is a solution for trauma. So doing skin to skin with baby, breastfeeding, all these things because when mom has been traumatized, probably baby has also been traumatized to some degree. And so getting them together can make such a huge difference and sends them leaps and bounds forward in their healing process. You’ve probably heard the say, the body keeps the score. There’s a great book by that same name. And treating the body, doing somatic therapies with the mom, and this is, again, outside of – this is advanced training for doulas, but there’s things that we can do as postpartum doulas just to get moms some relief, some healing, kind of connect the loop for her so that she can stop spiraling downward and really utilize her network, her baby, her own self, work through her memories, process out the story. Just by telling the story to her postpartum doula over and over again; it might seem redundant. The doula might – if the doula didn’t have any kind of trauma training, the doula might think, oh, this is not normal. But for someone who’s experienced trauma, telling that story over and over again and having someone listen. I teach my doulas to use the five senses. Listen; ask questions about the five senses. What did you see? What did you hear? How did it feel? Were there funny smells? Did you throw up? What were you drinking? All these things, because the body is where the trauma was felt. It’s where the trauma was processed. And so using the five senses to kind of uncover what happened helps moms to put the pieces together in ways that her conscious mind might not be able to do, but her subconscious can start tapping into that. With the five senses, you’re starting to tap into that subconscious mind. You can start putting the pieces together a little bit better. It feels less confusing. She can continue to repeatedly tell the story, but it becomes a healing activity rather than being on that wheel where you’re spinning and spinning in the trauma.

And again, to have someone with some training to be able to listen with empathy and without judgment. Not having to wait until that follow up postpartum visit to really feel like you’re being heard by a professional. I find that pediatricians can be valuable because those visits are so frequent. Asking questions and processing versus needing to wait for that six-week visit.

Right. And sometimes even when you’re at the six-week visit, you’ve got five or ten minutes with that person. And you don’t always – I mean, I’ve had six kids. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. As a fresh new mom, even with my sixth baby, I still was like, okay, what’s normal again? You can’t really – it’s good to know yourself, but sometimes you can’t really recognize what’s going on without that outside perspective. So somebody who really understands, looking at your behavior, looking at what you say, looking at how did your birth go, looking at how are you sleeping – are you sleeping? Looking at all those pieces and kind of putting them together and saying, this is what I see. Let me help you formulate some questions to ask your doctor. Let me help you formulate a list of symptoms maybe to take to your doctor because otherwise, moms are in a cloud of sleep deprivation, and they’re just there to show up for their appointment. They don’t always know what questions to ask or what things to bring up or what’s important, especially if it’s their first baby. But having a doula to come in the home and get to know your family and really be working with them. Sleep deprivation is a huge one, right, so just that alone can affect the mind and the ability to form sentences, let alone ask intelligent questions at the doctor’s office. I mean, every aspect of pregnancy and early parenting. My oldest is going to turn 31 and my youngest is 8. I have women around me. God bless having loads of women around me because I’m working in the birth world, so I’ve got all these caring, nurturing doula women around me all the time. Without our tribe – gosh, I just don’t know how women do it when they’re all alone.

We need support, absolutely, and so obviously. That’s why you were drawn to this work. We are unfortunately running out of time, but I would love to hear any final tips you have for our listeners, and then of course, please share how they can connect with you.

Sure! So MaternityWise, which is the company that I am the director for – we do maternity education. So we do labor doula, postpartum doula, lactation. We also have a program called EpiDoula, which is all about how to support someone who’s chosen to have an epidural and how to reduce their complications. We also have a childbirth educator program. We have a bunch of other programs. HIPAA certification; we have classes on how to process insurance as doulas, just tons and tons of things. Love it, right? Anything to do with birth. We even have an infant sleep class. So our philosophy is really very much looking at the whole experience, so I love that we were able to kind of go through the whole experience today during this talk because that is so key to know the end from the beginning. Whether you’re doing postpartum, it’s good to have birth education so that you can really understand what mom’s talking about and give her feedback about how her birth went because you will hear the story, right?

Right. Even if you don’t want to be on call as a birth doula, still having the education, as you mentioned, is so important.

100%. It’s just tools in your tool belt, right? And then vice versa: as a labor doula, a lot of times people want to just get trained as a labor doula because they think that’s the most exciting part, but it doesn’t end there, and you will get asked questions postpartum. You will have people trying to get your help with breastfeeding and stuff. And if you’re not trained, if you don’t have that additional information, you could potentially give bad advice and it could be harmful, with completely good intentions, but it could end up sabotaging a mom’s breastfeeding relationship or whatever, right? So having that full scope, the full spectrum of understanding and knowledge around birth and breastfeeding and postpartum – we just feel like that’s how you create better outcomes, bottom line. You can’t take one piece of the pie and just say, this is good enough. You’ve got to look at the entire experience and have knowledge and have wisdom to share throughout the whole experience. So the way to get trained with MaternityWise and get certified – and our programs are approved by any state that has a state registry or a Medicaid program. We are either already approved, or if they’re in process, we’re in process with them to get approved. So we’re across the nation. We’re around the world, too, but probably your listeners are mostly American, right?

Yes. For the most part.

Yeah. So our training, if you want to look more into it, is at MaternityWise. We would love to hear from your audience. But also, you have a book coming out, right? Tell me about that. I want to be able to make sure that we can help promote that, as well.

So it is called Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby. It comes out on Mother’s Day, May 12^th, so very soon. And it’s basically what I wish I would have had for my own kids, and it’s based on our online Becoming A Mother course. It’s about understanding all of the members of your birth and baby team, what options you have for providers, where to have your baby, and all of the different planning phases, not only prenatally, but putting as much importance in postnatal planning. We get into everything from insurance to how to pay for your doula and baby registries and registering for services in addition to things, and how to communicate your needs with family and friends. We try to cover all of it. We have a chapter on sleep. Alyssa, my co-author, is a sleep consultant. We’re both newborn care specialists and postpartum doulas, and then I’m the birth doula and childbirth educator. So I wrote the first half of the book, and she wrote the postpartum planning and feeding. We have some experts in the book, as well, from a board-certified lactation consultant to a pediatrician to a perinatal mood disorder mental health therapist. Since doulas are not medical, we wanted to bring in some medical experts, as well.

That’s smart. I love that.

Well, thank you so much, Anne! We’ll have to have you back on again! I could talk to you forever. You are such a wealth of information.

It was super fun. I really love that we could do this. I’m so excited about your book because everybody needs to get their hands on that. Any mom that’s expecting, I’m sure, is going to really appreciate that knowledge to have in their own toolkit. It’s awesome.

Exactly. And I feel like my secondary audience for the book is also anyone who works with pregnant individuals and new parents. They would also benefit in understanding all of the options to refer from understanding car seat safety technicians are a thing, to Webster certified chiropractors to pelvic floor physical therapists to, again, the different types of mental health therapists.

Amazing. It really takes a team. A client of mine that I was just speaking to the other day – she was just saying, she didn’t have all these pieces. She’s got a Pilates person, a yoga person, a massage therapist, a chiropractor. She’s got – in addition to her medical team, her OB, and then she’s also got a midwife because she’s delivering at a hospital that has midwives and OBs, so the team she’s with has both. And of course, she’s got a doula, and she’s working on hiring a postpartum doula. It’s so good to be able to see this. And I know this is about accessibility, too. Not everyone can afford to have all these supportive, coach-like people on their journey. But if you can – and thank goodness, sometimes insurance will be covering it. It’s just so important because, again, like we started out saying, families are very separated now, and even friends. We don’t have that instant person, a lot of times, right there able to help us, and it’s good to have resources that we can reach out to whose eyes are looking at our situation with their own specialty in mind. So they might have a different thing to encourage us to look into or research more or go get help with. It’s really important.

Absolutely. Well, thank you, Anne, and I hope to talk to you soon! Take good care.

Yes, thank you! You too!

IMPORTANT LINKS

MaternityWise International

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

The benefits of doula support with Anne Wallen: Podcast Episode #238 Read More »

Simple Healthy Habits for Busy Moms: Podcast Episode #237

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Brianna Wilkerson of Mommy Me Time Community discuss the focus on prioritizing health and self-care during each season of motherhood. Brianna has quick tips for both new and seasoned moms to get more intentional time and nourishment.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to have my new friend, Brianna Wilkerson, on Ask the Doulas today. Brianna is a holistic health and life coach. She’s a brand partner with Savvy, podcast host, wife, mama, tea lover, Crossfitter. You name it, she’s about it. Welcome, Brianna!

Thank you so much for having me!

So your focus is all about helping moms. You help ambitious women and moms prioritize their health and self-care so they can feel healthy, strong, and confident, no matter if they’re a first time mom or they’re a very seasoned mom, if their kids are older or if they’re in the new mom phase. You support motherhood through all of the different changes, and your bio also tells me that you have a passion for women creating a sustainable income and growing into leaders that they were meant to be. I love it!

Yeah, multipassionate always! I think that the core of it in the last year or so is really seeing that moms is where I’m supposed to land, and if I can help a mom, I help a family and more. So I’m excited to do that more.

That is so true. That’s how I feel. I feel like doulas can save marriages, and these support groups and communities that you create, your podcast, they give women the confidence to navigate the challenges and to have peers that are in the thick of it with you is so important, whether they’re in person or in a virtual community like those that you create.

Yeah, exactly.

So our topic today is simple healthy habits for the busy mom. I’m excited to hear your thoughts and tips for our listeners.

Yeah, we can start wherever you would like. I don’t think there is a mom that isn’t busy, or a woman that’s not busy, but I just think that with the busyness of life, there often comes a lot of roadblocks. There are a lot of obstacles that make it challenging. Not impossible, but challenging to prioritize our health and self-care, whatever that may mean for you. That may mean nutrition. That may mean exercise. That may mean alone time. It can mean multiple different things. And those road blocks could be things such as time; not feeling like you have enough time. It could be fatigue; you’re just tired. It could be finances. It could be lack of support. It could be guilt; like, is it okay that I take away some time from my kid? And onward and onward. There’s just so many things that would make it hard for us to make time in the busyness of life. But what I have found is that even when you spend five or ten minutes on those daily nonnegotiables that really fill your tank, that really take care of you, your cup is so much fuller, and you’re just able to show up more patiently, more powerfully, and be able to serve in whatever way you can, and you’re doing a lot better. Before I had kids, I could do a lot of things. I just felt like I had more time.

Oh, there’s so much more time!

Right? And the reality is we have the same amount of time. It’s just that our kids now are taking – maybe we didn’t realize this when we became parents, but we decided, like, when I become a mother, I am choosing, especially when they’re still in my household, to give my time to the growing, to the development, to the nurturing, to the love, to the memories with my kids. And you quickly recognize, like, okay, well, that may mean that there’s less time to do other things. So how do I then fit in those things that maybe I did at first that really filled me, nourished me? And for me it’s really bite sized. You’ve got to do it in bite size pieces, but yeah.

That’s beautiful, Brianna. And I feel like there are different phases of motherhood. Right now, my kids are in school all day, but I feel like I am their shuttle driver to sports events and activities and friend events, so it’s a different kind of busy than the toddler phase or if they are in preschool or daycare when you feel like you can’t get much done in those three hours, especially for entrepreneurs like ourselves when there’s so much on the to-do list.

Exactly. And I think we’re just told – we just start to believe it’s a mindset thing, too. It’s either all or nothing. Either I go to the gym for an hour or I don’t go at all, or either I eat “perfectly” or I don’t eat healthy at all, when in reality, all successful people in any area of life would tell you that it’s all about those small, simple steps you take daily that compound over time that help you get healthier, that help you get fitter, that help you win an Olympic medal, for example. But it’s not sexy to do those things all the time and feel like it matters or feel like it’s getting you places, but it really does make a difference, and studies have shown that you can do ten minutes of a workout and honestly it increases your heartrate and boosts your metabolism a lot more than an hour, depending on the type of workout you’re doing. So a lot can be done in five or ten minutes.

Absolutely. And even stretching can be so beneficial. If you have a dog, take your dog for a walk. You can walk or run with your children. There are so many things that you can do to bond with your family. I mean, even if you have a partner, just walking with your partner can make a nice way to get moving and active, burn some calories, but also clear your mind. So a good walk does wonders.

It really does.

Again, talk about the different types of self-care. For me, I like to get up a bit early, and really, how I start the day sets the tone for the day. And sometimes, you just need to sleep in and you don’t need to get ahead of when your kids wake and all of the work activities that need to be done, so it can look different every day, but I try to get up before my family and set some time, take my dog out, and move my body a little bit, get some water, and then start the wake up process and looking at my emails, but I try to avoid technology for at least a short span of time to meditate, or for those of you that use prayer, like praying, and starting some rituals for your life. But for me, how you start and end a day can really set the tone.

Yeah, I think it’s figuring out – because there are so many different things that you could do and focus on, but the reality is – it’s not that you can’t do all of those eventually, but you shouldn’t start out trying to do all of those. What are your three to five daily nonnegotiables that you need to do each day to feel your best? Is it movement? Is it nutrition? Is it drinking enough water? Is it that five to ten minutes before your kids wake up to have that centering time? Is it cutting off technology before you go to bed at a certain time? And there’s no right or wrong here, and you may not even know what you need. That’s the importance of definitely talking with someone, but also just start trying to do something so that you can see if it’s really impacting you and really nourishing in the way you need. I highly recommend always considering four to five main areas. You do want to consider your nutrition. What are you putting in your body? Ultimately, the word nutrition is Latin for nourish. It’s just nourishing; we’re nourishing our body, giving it the care that it needs. And our body needs certain things. It needs certain micronutrients. It needs certain macronutrients to thrive. Just start somewhere. When it comes to nutrition, I really suggest people crowd out by adding in. If you want to eat less of some other type of food – not that you say you can’t eat it, but you just want to eat less of it because it may not be nourishing you the way you want – add in something else. Maybe you want to eat less rice at a dinner, for example. So you’re like, okay, one way is to add in broccoli, because I want to add that in more. And then maybe you try that at one meal a day or one meal a couple times a week, and then you add it in every dinner. Or maybe you add in broccoli or a vegetable at two meals a day, then three, and just over time, that slow process will become like second nature for you to have a vegetable at a meal. And vegetables will feel you way quicker than rice, for example. I love a good rice. We’re not shaming rice over here. But yes, it’s nutrition, and we can dive deeper into that, but I really think for most of us, we know at least the basics, that certain foods are more nourishing than others. So if you want to incorporate more of that, it’s really just picking one and adding in slowly.

Now, with movement, again, there are so many types of exercise programs and fitness programs, and no one fits all. It really depends on what you love, what you enjoy. There’s still a way to get cardio, flexibility, stamina, endurance, strength training, all of those, the general physical skills, in the types of exercises that you’re doing. But you might have to be more intentional if you’re doing it on your own, or maybe you join a certain type of program that does it for you. Then it’s like, well, I don’t have to think about it. But what I think is key with that is just commit to moving every day regularly. And I say like, okay, maybe you start with just moving more like tracking your steps or just choosing to park a little further, or maybe you’re like, no, I want actually to do a workout because it challenges me in a certain way and releases endorphins and all that. So maybe you start with ten minutes a day, which, again, does not seem like a lot, but let me tell you, I’ve gotten very fit doing ten minutes a day just consistently. You know, there’s so many different things you can do for that, but I just think ten minutes of walking a day does wonders for your body. So don’t negate walking. Maybe you used to run. For me, I went from walking to running, and now I’m like, I just love a good walk. I love a good walk. I don’t want to do long distance running right now. Now I do a lot of walks with the kids in tow. A lot of my workouts are with the kids in the stroller.

It’s that life stage.

Exactly. And again, whatever stage you’re in – you know, before having kids, I served a lot of women who were grandmas. At that stage, they’re like, okay, I can finally take care of me. My kids are out of the house. They’re a little bit older. And I say, well, the challenges are still the same. You’re still busy. It’s not like your busyness decreases. Maybe in a certain way, but you can still be on your toes, being involved in certain things, and so you still need to practice some of these things.

So yeah, nutrition, movement, and I would say stress and sleep are too ignored. Very ignored areas, because we often think we can just survive without consistent sleep, quality sleep. And we don’t actually realize how much stress we’re under in this day and age. Talking about the phone: you can be connected. You can Google anything. Before, you had to go to a library to find out something. Now you can find it out right then and there. You can order everything online. You can find out the news. Most of us don’t even watch the actual news anymore. We just check Instagram.

Just look at the little summary clips on your feed, and you’re good.

Right? And all that to say none of it is bad, but we’re so stimulated, and it’s just so easy for us to be more mentally stressed, and that really impacts your body. It impacts your hormones, and it impacts your health in various ways. On the other side of that, though, is that again, we’re so connected. Even back in my parents’ or grandparents’ generation, they didn’t really have electricity in the same way. When it was dark, it was dark. You stopped doing things at a certain time. But us, we have light. We have unlimited internet access. We can just be doing things all day, every day. But we need to rest. We need that good quality sleep to restore. So really creating a good sleep time routine there and really figuring out tools to manage your stress.

It’s so important, and many of our listeners are either pregnant or pre-conception or in that early parenting phase, so sleep is vital. With a newborn, you get so many wakeups, so trying to prioritize sleep or get support from a postpartum doula who focuses on overnights, for example. And in pregnancy with discomforts, sleep can be challenging, as well.

Yes. Even with that, my eldest is now only four and just sleeping better through the night. She still goes to bed a little later than I want, than what I would like. So I understand. I’m not trying to be one of those people who are like, oh, my gosh, just sleep. I understand different kids and different lives. Maybe you work at night or all these different things. But I do think there are things within our control that we don’t think are in our control. So, like, I know that sometimes my daughter goes to bed late, but I feel like I haven’t had my time, so I will stay up later than probably I actually want to in order to get whatever me time that is. And really, that’s actually hindering me because she’s probably still going to wake up early, or my son will. So I just think it’s like, what can we do? What can we actually do? And then the fifth area is like your mindset. That goes with the what can we do. Just really seeing that you do have control over some things when it comes to your health. It may feel like there’s a lot of barriers. There’s a lot of road blocks. But when you start to believe that things can change, whether they’re slow – I actually think slow is always better because it’s more sustainable – you start to see that, like, okay, it doesn’t have to just be this way. Or maybe it won’t always be this way forever. And so you just have more a positive attitude which makes you more hopeful and therefore more likely to take action around taking care of yourself.

Yes. I love it. Mindset is so important. We focus on mindset in pregnancy, and as an athlete, you understand this, that runners visualize a race in advance, and a lot of athletes, swimmers, do so much mental as well as physical preparation. In our classes, whether it’s HypnoBirthing or the Comfort Measures for Labor classes that I teach, we talk about visualization and mental preparation as well as how to feed your body, move your body, and how to best prepare for birth in a way that could be compared to preparing for a marathon. You want to rest and nourish yourself in the very early stages of labor, so we talk about the importance of sleep and rest and not knowing how long the labor will be but needing that strength for the pushing phase. For a race, you’ve got to make it to that finish line, so don’t beat everyone in the first mile. You want to be able to pace yourself and know your limits and know that your mind can take you far when your body is tired.

It’s so interesting. I had a really good friend who’s on her sixth pregnancy now, but I just remembered she would tell me, like – yeah, just the importance of the mindset, of visualization, even in pregnancy. And I remember with my second I tried to practice that more. The pain was just so bad. I wanted to not think; not relax. I wanted to clench up, and just having to visualize and tell myself and talk myself through it – it made a difference.

It does make a difference! But your body does want to clench when you are in discomfort with contractions of labor or even just pregnancy aches and pains, and you just need to open up and relax and not resist because the more you’re clenching and stressed, the more uncomfortable you’re going to be. I love that your friend gave that advice and that it worked for you.

It really did help.

So you likely focus on ways to reduce the stress levels and cortisol levels. How do you talk to your community, whether it’s using breath work or mindset? I’m interested in how you address that.

I think it does depend. I mean, the power of breathing is just like when we’re going through birth. They’re like, just breathe, and I’m like, I don’t want to breathe. I just want to scream. But it does really calm that fight or flight response that your body is feeling, and it really brings you to a more calm state to do whatever you need to do. So don’t underestimate the power of just breathing in and breathing out, or breathing in and holding for a bit and breathing out. You can do the box four or the count to four method. And another thing I like to do is a process – I learned this one time through a program I did where you write out your stressors and really figure out which ones you can eliminate, which ones you can reduce, and which ones you just have to cope with. Because the reality is, many of us think we have to just cope with all of our stressors, but sometimes you can actually eliminate it or reduce it. For example, kids are stressful, especially when they’re young. I mean, maybe all the years, right, but – so I have to cope with that, but are there ways I could also reduce certain things or eliminate the need where I feel like I need to do everything in the house? You know what I mean? Is there something that I could do? Yeah, I could ask for help, or I could hire – or maybe I find little tips and tricks to keep things less likely to get dirty. I don’t know. Again, it goes back to the mindset of what can I actually control? And when you start to see that – I mean, you write out your stressors, and then you just go and label them. Eliminate, reduce. Then you’re like, okay, well, this is what I can control. This is what I can’t. So how I can get help with some of that? And I think as you’re pregnant, you’re stressed about so many things. Like, is my baby going to take this pacifier or am I going to have to buy all the brands? How is the birth going to go? And there’s so much within the birthing and the whole process that we actually can’t control. I’m not saying you can’t be concerned about it, but really asking yourself, what is my role here and when do I just need to let go and realize that I don’t have control over some of those things.

Exactly, yes. And it’s a great way to approach parenting. I feel like the unpredictability of labor and birth leads well into the unknowns in early parenting, and even parenting teenagers. It’s not predictable. There’s not a manual or formula. So we’ve got to use our instincts and our resources to make informed decisions.

Right. Exactly.

I would love to have you fill our listeners in more about your community. Mommy Me Team Coach?

Yeah, so I’ve gone through so many names of my coaching work throughout the years, but I realized that ultimately, there is so much power in mom having her time. Like, whatever that is. It may mean time alone. It may mean time to just invest in herself. It may mean time to do a hobby or a side hustle that she loves. I am about advocating for moms to take care of themselves. I just think we’re such caregivers, and we give so much. And sometimes we can even be a little, like – I don’t know the right words. Resentful, that people aren’t doing that for us. But it comes to a point where when we raise our kids, we want them to be advocates for themselves. We want them to stand up for what they want, and we teach them to be independent young adults. And it’s the same thing with us. We don’t stop doing that. We still need to advocated for the things we need and want and speak up about it. That’s what Mommy Me Time Coach is all about. It’s helping women really prioritize their health and self-care in small, simple ways. And so I do a weekly – right now, my official podcast is on hold, but I do a live Instagram show weekly. I have multiple summits that I do a year just helping moms in different seasons. I have a Facebook community, and then I have a membership to help busy moms take care of their health and their self-care, too. So that’s kind of the focus right now.

So many different options! Depending on the budget and the time, checking out your Instagram and some of your summits, and then when budget allows, investing in your very valuable membership community. And are there different levels of membership? Explain that for our listeners.

Yeah, so I’ve done one on one coaching throughout most of my eight year of coaching, and I love it. But just in this season, I was just thinking about myself and busy moms, and I’m like, you know what, I still think that’s valuable, but I do think there’s power in a community and power in working over time, and I think that’s what a membership allows. You don’t feel the pressure to do everything because you’re going to be here however long you need to be here. So no, right now, it’s only one level you join. It’s $30 a month for that, and you’ll get a monthly theme, masterclass training, resources, check-ins, coaching call, a community. And then of course – like, some women do it and they’re like, okay, but I actually do want more one on one support, and that’s an option, too. Right now, it’s mainly like, if you want to join the membership, it’s group formatted, but I do a limited amount of one on one spots, as well.

Excellent. And how can our listeners connect with you, whether it’s social or your website?

I’m really on Instagram, almost all the time. Not all the time; it’s just my main place. So Instagram, @mommymetimecoach. You can also go to Mommy Me Time Community on Facebook. Those are my two social hangouts. And if you want to join my mailing list, I send one or two emails a week, just if I’m doing events. You can grab my free Healthy Habits Challenge for Moms, and then you’ll be on the mailing list, and that way you’ll also get some tips on some of the things we talked about, as well.

And for the LinkedIn lovers, you’re also there?

Oh, I’m on LinkedIn, too. I don’t do as much on LinkedIn. I need to. But I am on LinkedIn, and I will get a message if you send it to me there.

Excellent. People will be able to connect with you and get your download as well. Do you have a final tip for our listeners before we say farewell?

Yeah, I would just say the biggest thing is to give yourself grace during this time period. I think pregnancy in itself, your body goes through so many changes, but you still have to live life and do different things, and maybe you have other kids, so give yourself grace, even with the things I talked about. And then postpartum, I mean, with my son, he was the second, and it really took me a while to get into a flow of some of the very things I’m talking about. He’s nearly two, and I just feel like I can do some of this stuff, you know? But I made sure to still move when he was young, whether it was two times a week walking versus like, now I do more than that. Give grace to really trust your intuition of what you need, but also don’t wait. Try to take a small step at a time.

Perfect tip. Thank you so much, Brianna, and I can’t wait to connect again.

Thank you so much!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Mommy Me Time

Brianna’s Facebook and Instagram

FREE Healthy Habits for Moms

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Simple Healthy Habits for Busy Moms: Podcast Episode #237 Read More »

Prenatal and Postnatal Nutrition Tips with Stephanie Middleburg: Podcast Episode #236

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Stephanie Middleburg chat about the importance of nourishing yourself and your baby during pregnancy and the postnatal phase. Stephanie is the author of “The Big Book of Pregnancy Nutrition” and founder of Middleburg Nutrition.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with Stephanie Middleburg today. Stephanie is a registered dietician, author, and founder of Middleburg Nutrition. Welcome, Stephanie!

Hi! Thanks for having me!

So happy to have you here! Our primary topic today is all about prenatal nutrition.

Yes, I have – I love this topic. I’ve always loved this. First and foremost, I’m also a mom of two. I have an eight-year-old little boy and an almost two-year-old little girl. I’ve focused on this a ton in my practice. It’s become a specialty, and I have a book coming out April 30^th, called The Big Book of Pregnancy Nutrition.

Amazing! And you also have two other books, so you seem like you’re very busy between being an author of multiple books and your own practice as a dietician. Being a mom itself is a busy job. Very impressive!

I mean, the kids have been the inspiration for my books, that’s for sure. So my first book was The Big Book of Organic Baby Food, followed by The Big Book of Organic Toddler Food, and now this pregnancy book is essentially a prequel to the others. And I think being in private practice keeps me so grounded and connected to what people are actually going through and their questions. Literally while I was writing The Big Book of Pregnancy Nutrition, I was taking notes as to what my clients were saying. I think the power of these books is that you can have all the information, but unless it’s communicated in a way that people can be receptive to and understand, those words might not be as effective. I really try to take a realistic approach in my books and my work with my clients, which is a lot of fun.

That makes so much sense, and obviously, the foundation of everything is that prenatal phase and focusing on nourishing yourself. I know there can be a lot of misinformation about following cravings and it’s an excuse to eat whatever you want, but it is so important to focus on proper nutrition, not only for baby, but for yourself.

It’s such an interesting time with my work with my clients because I think women come in this stage with such different mindsets. I work with so many women who are really fearful and anxious about the food that they consume from a food safety perspective and making sure they’re getting all the nutrients, and then there’s other women who are like, this is my time to eat what I want. I’m going to lean into these cravings. But there is still so much confusion out there and so many questions, and it is such an important stage that can really set the tone for both how mom is feeling in her pregnancy and postpartum, as well, which is why I really like to emphasize in this book that it’s food for mama and for baby. It really does start the family thinking about eating quite differently, and I just know from in my pregnancies, even as a practitioner, there were a lot of things that I acted reactively to, being like, why didn’t I know this? Why didn’t anybody tell me this, or why didn’t I research this more? And I see that in my clients, too. A lot of the book was to really provide some information along the way at various stages, whether or not you make changes, but at least to be aware of things to talk to your doctors or your care team about. I think that’s so important. I essentially go through the book as I would with someone that would come into my office. Essentially, the first thing I’m so passionate about is getting bloodwork done for pregnant women. Not everyone has a baseline of where they are at the start of pregnancy, and I feel like that’s such a missed opportunity, especially as it relates to whatever your background is. If you’ve been on the birth control pill for a long time, that can deplete a lot of nutrients like B6 and B12 and vitamin D and C and magnesium and selenium if you’re vegan or vegetarian. You want to know where your vitamin D levels are because you might need more than what’s in your prenatal. Iron, anemia. 50% of women essentially are anemic in their pregnancy, and this usually happens in the second or third trimester, but it’s important to know what your base is to be able to – if this is something, like, should you take an iron supplement in your prenatal; should you take one separately. B12; 38% of women are deficient in it, and they really don’t realize it. Those are really things, when you feel the fatigue – I mean, you’re going to be tired in pregnancy regardless, but it could have to do with some nutritional deficiencies. And one other thing I’m passionate about is blood sugar, hemoglobin A1C. So that essentially measures your blood sugar over a two to three month span, and in pregnancy, most women, unless you’re considered an older mom, your blood sugar doesn’t get tested. You don’t go through the blood glucose screening test until 24 to 28 weeks. Again, if you’re older, you might do it at week 16. That’s far along in your pregnancy to find out that you might have gestational diabetes. We really are looking that studies really show that at the start of pregnancy, if your levels are 5.7 or above, chances are you probably will have gestational diabetes, so why not work on some blood sugar control earlier rather than wait until the middle of your pregnancy? So there’s just some preventative things that I’m just very passionate about women talking to their doctors about just to get more personal information for their bodies to see what’s going on.

Very helpful. And the book is such a great way for you to impact more women. I mean, living in Brooklyn, you can only see so many people in your private practice, so having this guide for people all over the world to better care for themselves and their baby or babies is so important.

Yeah, I really hope so, and that’s really the goal. It was amazing to me how the Big Book of Organic Baby Food really became a Bible to so many women. I am in Brooklyn, but to see how far reaching it was and how helpful it was for so many women definitely helped inspire this book for pregnancy because it is such a confusing time. These are areas where you need a lot of handholding, right, in certain parts, and you need a lot of guidance. Somethings are black and white, but some things, there’s gray area. I think as it relates to even food safety, a lot of women get hung up on it and over-Google. That’s where they get their information from. They might not be getting it from their care team, either. Prenatal stuff is definitely one of those where no one really knows what to do there. You’re told to get a prenatal, and I think unless you have a relative or a friend, there’s no guidance on what specific prenatal you should get or what you should be looking for for yourself. So I have a big chart there, and a section on supplementing your supplements. Again, some women need additional nutrients in addition to just what their prenatal is providing them.

That makes perfect sense. I remember having a friend tell me about the whole food prenatals versus the standard generic ones, and it made such a difference in my nausea and just overall energy.

100%. And sometimes it takes a little bit to find the right combination for you, and that’s okay. You can switch your prenatal in the combination until you find the best fit for you. The first trimester is really hard because 75% of women are going to be nauseous, and there are different forms of prenatals you can take. There are now some powders you can do. There are some liquids. Gummies, which aren’t my favorite; you’re just not going to get enough of what you need as a supplement, but better than nothing, right? Take a gummy in the first trimester until you start feeling better. But really, yeah, unless you know, it’s a really hard area and knowing what to look for. Not everyone will need iron in their prenatal but might need to take it separately because it can lead to some digestive issues. Not all prenatals have choline in it. A lot of prenatals just have, like, 600 to 800 IUs of vitamin D where you might need 4000 IUs of vitamin D. It might not have the right form. You might need more magnesium citrate, for example, if you’re finding you’re constipated. Not to make it complicated, but these are all things to look out for that can be immensely helpful. I’m a big proponent of probiotics, especially later on in pregnancy, because there’s really great research that shows that it can help prevent chronic conditions in kids, like eczema, food allergies, things of that nature, especially if you’re going to have a C-section or for any reason you were put on antibiotics, even during your pregnancy or post, that your baby was put on any sort of antibiotics. I think it’s helpful to take a probiotic in your third trimester and then probably postpartum.

That makes complete sense. So you mentioned earlier, Stephanie, that there were some nutrition tips that you wish you would have known that you shared in the book.

Yes!

I would love to hear more about that.

The supplements was a big one for me. I remember going to the doctor’s office so excited we’re going to have this conversation, and he was like, yeah, take a prenatal. And I was like, do I need vitamin D? He’s like, yeah, could do. Maybe, maybe not, but take it. I remember the conversation was so meh. And that’s one of the reasons why it inspired me to go into detail about these prenatals and again to have the conversation and bring it to your doctor or ask them to test your levels so you can see if you do need more of certain things. Another part was during the blood glucose screening test, my nurses had told me – this is, again, 24 to 28 weeks, your first time to test if you might have gestational diabetes, and you take, like, 50 grams of sugar. I don’t know if you remember this. And then they test your glucose, your reaction to it. If you pass, great. If you fail, then you have to go on to a three-hour glucose screening test, which is way less fun. You want to try to avoid it if you can, but it doesn’t mean that you have gestational diabetes. But anyway, it is not a fasting test, and time and time again with me, I was told it was, and so many of my clients were told it was, which I think sets you up for a disadvantage. If you think about it, if you’re having so much sugar on an empty stomach, you’re going to spike more than if you are consuming this sugar on a breakfast, or after a meal that is really rich in protein and fat, which slows down the absorption of sugar. That was one area that I was like, what? Why? Why did I get this misinformation? Why did I not know this? And now even with the glucose screening test, it depends on how you feel about certain things. First of all, the test is gross.

It is gross.

It tastes like an off-brand Gatorade with a maple syrup texture. It’s not fun. And thank goodness, we’re at a time where there’s so much research and people are paying attention to this prenatal experience. There is a company now that has a dye-free option called the Fresh Test, which I wish I knew about it when I had my pregnancies. It also tastes better. It’s one of those things that you can purchase and talk to your doctor. Just share with them if you have a preference for taking this. And it’s more of a lemon, sour-tasting versus some of those other ones that are orangey or raspberry and just don’t taste very good. Lemon is a better taste than others. But have a strong breakfast before you go; again, rich in protein and fat. So, say, like, eggs and avocado or full fat Greek yogurt with nuts in it, something along those lines. I feel like that gives you a fighting chance so you have more success at that point.

Another prime example that I was not aware about was when I was induced, which I have feelings about now, of course. This was in my first pregnancy. I didn’t know that doctors don’t allow you to eat once you start the process, and I would have been more prepared. You’re essentially going through labor – your body is being put through a major physical test. You’re running a marathon. To subside on Jello…

It does not work.

It does not work, and I think it’s something you can have a conversation with your doctor. I mean, they’re concerned about aspiration, but it’s really – I think just to have the conversation. I do believe most people can have more foods. I mean, this is where I’m a fan of bringing some bone broth, whether you made it or get it from a trustworthy source, that you can sip. It’s going to give you so much more energy. You can even bring in honey sticks. Something like energy bites. I mean, things that are going to get digested very quickly. But you need energy to take you through your labor and to help you recover postpartum. I have a labor aid recipe, which is essentially your own DIY electrolyte mix that you can bring that has sugar and salt and really hydrating. That was in a time of, like, what do you mean I can’t eat? I was starving, and I was so depleted. And I know so many women go through that, as well. I definitely list out a lot of things to eat if you were home, or if you’re going to a hospital, things that you could bring. So those were three examples, I think, where I was not as prepared as I wish I was from a food perspective.

Fortunately, there are fewer restrictions on eating in the hospital now, at least in my area in Michigan. As a doula, my clients are able to snack on a lot of the items you mentioned.

Which is amazing!

Yes, big change.

It’s a big change, absolutely. And I think one of the other areas that I wanted the book to go into is that fourth trimester recovery. I don’t think women are prepared for how tired and how starving they’re going to be once the baby arrives, especially if they do plan on nursing. Every client of mine is so surprised how hungry they are.

Absolutely. Especially, like you said, with breastfeeding. I felt like I could eat all the time, and yet I also felt like I was caring for my baby and toddler at the same time.

100%. Suddenly, your nutrition isn’t about you anymore, right? But yet your needs are the highest they’ve ever been. You just went through a marathon. You carried a baby for ten months, and you’re nursing, which essentially is like you’re running at least six miles a day. This is such an important time to think about fortifying yourself, and women are just so depleted and exhausted. I really have – not necessarily a meal plan, but the guidance in terms of, like, your snacks really have to be mini meals and things that you can do to make sure that you’re fortifying yourself. You just need more of everything, essentially, at this stage. You need even more protein. You need even more of the healthy fats. You need even more of the hydration for you and the carbohydrates. That was a stage that I just was like – it’s a feeling that you’ve never felt before, and you want to keep up your milk supply, too, which is really important. I have 40 recipes in the back of the book. My other two books were more of cookbooks. This is more of a nutrition book with 40 recipes. But I definitely have some recipes. They’re divided into sections. One section is some lactogenic recipes that can help boost milk supply. I have sections of breakfast. I have healthified comfort foods. I have things you can freeze in advance during that nesting period. I really have – I want people to rely on their freezers a lot to have a lot food in advance that you can just defrost. I think it’s really, really important. I have a whole sweets section. I have a vegetable section, which are really hard for a lot of pregnant women to consume, especially in that first trimester, and they want sour tastes. A slaw is great; or so many of my clients could, in the beginning, get down a cucumber salad with rice wine vinegar and olive oil and sesame seeds, something along those lines. Any chance to get some nutrition in when you’re not feeling good. But also through that postpartum, nutrition deficiency is like – you know, some people develop thyroid issues and they don’t realize that maybe that might be contributing some feelings of depression and anxiety. Those are nutrients to pay attention to, as well. Your needs for iodine in pregnancy increase 50%, which is huge. And again, iron; your needs increase one and a half times. Your blood volume doubles in pregnancy. I don’t think a lot of pregnant women prior to pregnancy necessarily thought about their iron intake unless they were anemic, but especially iron, iodine, protein in the postpartum stage is really important. And as you said, you probably see so much depletion in these women.

Definitely. So one thing that is a constant struggle – you mentioned freezing food, and it’s great that you have all of these recipes, but oftentimes with well-meaning family and friends and meal trains, the food that is prepared is not often the healthiest for a postpartum mother.

Yes. Well, this is where – it’s true. I mean, hopefully, you can be an advocate for yourself and ask your well-meaning friends and family if you have certain requests of what you would like to eat. I think it is also maybe in advance going – if you don’t think you might be cooking, it might be going through restaurant menus that you know you’ve loved before and highlighting certain things that a partner or someone can order that you know is healthy that you like. I know in New York and various cities, there’s some postpartum or just meal delivery services. Instead of gifts, a lot of friends accumulate funds for things like this and do a week of meal delivery for a mother or for the family, something along those lines. I think a little bit of that is thinking in advance what would be the most helpful. And your friends want to help. Your family wants to help. If it’s money for a meal delivery service, do it.

Or even for friends and family members who love to cook, send them some of the recipes in your book.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, that’s one thing that’s amazing about the Big Book of Organic Baby Food and Toddler Food. All these women or families who are telling me that they might not be cooking it, but they’re giving it to their caretakers, the recipes, so they’re giving it to the grandparents and are like, here, make anything from this book. So it just makes their lives so much easier.

Definitely. Yes, as postpartum doulas, we do light meal preparation, so we make snacks and food for toddlers. It is always helpful to have a guide or recipe that would be helpful for the entire family.

Exactly. I always try to strike a balance with all my books. These are going to be foods that the whole family can enjoy that’s nutritious and yummy, but easy. Easy, too. I want my recipes to be under 30 minutes. Some are going to take more time, like if you’re making – I do have a lasagna. Obviously, that’s going to take more cooking time. But it can last in the freezer for a long, long time. I don’t want someone to spend tons of time in the kitchen if they don’t want to. That’s why I want the recipes to be accessible and easy for everyone.

Love it. Any final tips for our listeners, Stephanie?

I would just – I mean, again, one of my things is just that you have to be your own advocate during this. Listen to your body. It is such a fun and exciting time. Be an advocate. Ask questions to your doctor. Ask your friends questions. I think probably you see this, too, for nursing. If you plan to nurse – I just think for women to go into it knowing that nursing is hard. I see this time and time again, and I know it for myself. I think the nursing situation can make or break your first few weeks for you of your postnatal experience. I think a lot of women have their hearts set on nursing and if they can’t do it, it becomes emotionally and physically really tough. I think just having a perspective that it’s hard. Not to say don’t do it, but everybody responds to it differently. I just want people to set their expectations and maybe have a plan B in mind if it doesn’t work out and that it’s really okay. And also to try to set up some support for it. If you know of a lactation specialist or if your doula is a lactation specialist, really reach out for that. But again, I just feel like I was so lucky and thankful that my friends were super open and honest about their experience about that being tough. I went in knowing that it might not work, and that’s okay. I think just in this space, again, there’s so many resources to help you nurse and there’s so many great formulas, too, on the market now that I feel like we just didn’t have access to even a few years ago. There’s always options. I just think that’s one thing that’s really important. And I would also say don’t worry if in that first trimester, you feel like all you can eat is bread and butter and cheese. It’s okay. Get through it. Your baby will be fine. They will take from your stores. But do try to slowly incorporate, even if it’s a few bites, some protein for you. The less that you eat, it’s sort of like this vicious cycle. And if you’re nauseous, the less that you eat, you can become more nauseous, and you can get reflux. So you really do sort of need to get that. You need to eat to support your body and probably eat every two to three hours. But I will say, just to take that pressure off, don’t worry about it. A lot of women don’t feel well. Do the best that you can. That’s why second, thirst trimester and postpartum, we want to focus on the mom, too, to make sure that she can be healthy to support herself, to have your body heal as it should. And then also to be able to go into a second or third or fourth pregnancy with their tanks full, right, instead of depleted.

That’s what it’s all about.

Yep, that’s what it’s all about.

Well, thank you for those tips. Very helpful advice. So, Stephanie, fill us in on how to get your books, to start, and then how our listeners can connect with you.

Great. My books – you really can get them anywhere. Amazon, for a lot of people, is just the easiest. Amazon.com. But you can get them at Barnes & Noble and Target, online and in the stores. The pregnancy book won’t be out until April 30^th, but the other two at any point. And you can find me @smiddleburg-rd. That’s my Instagram. And then middleburgnutition.com is my website. And even though I’m based in Brooklyn, New York, I actually do a lot virtually. I do a combination there. I love working with women or families one on one, in any capacity.

Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom, Stephanie. It was lovely, and I’ll have to have you back on to expand our conversation in the future.

I would love that. Thank you so much!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Middleburg Nutrition

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Prenatal and Postnatal Nutrition Tips with Stephanie Middleburg: Podcast Episode #236 Read More »

Heidi McDowell of Mind Body Baby Collective: Podcast Episode #235

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin and Heidi discussed her yoga studio’s expansion, including child care and a co-working space. They also discussed Heidi’s contribution to the fitness section in our upcoming book release, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to bring back Heidi McDowell of Mind Body Baby to chat about so many topics today! But the overarching theme is going to be focusing on creating community and certainly addressing the childcare struggle that moms have, that birth and baby and health and wellness practitioners have in building businesses and making appointments. Welcome, Heidi!

Hi, Kristin! I’m happy to be here!

Yes, I’m so excited to chat about your news related to solving some of the challenges with childcare and expanding your own practice!

Yeah, we are really excited to be able to announce that we have purchased with the intentions of expanding into a new 8,000 square foot facility. We’re calling it a Mega Mom Center.

I love it.

It’s titled the Mind Body Baby Collective. We are partnering with other women-owned, women-operated businesses to support moms, families, women who are really excited for what we have in store.

It’s so exciting, and Mind Body Baby has always provided childcare, not only for your employees, but for your students, and you are solving this childcare issue by providing it for all of the members of the collective. So you have massage therapists, doulas, a chiropractic practice – so many different businesses can benefit from the dilemma that those of us doing this work faced when we had young children.

Yeah, absolutely. It is that two-pronged approach. Not only is the center operating child care for our services, so Mind Body Baby and everything that we have, like, but we are offering childcare for the entire facility. So anybody that is within the walls of Mind Body Baby has the opportunity to utilize childcare. My thought has always been, why do we have to choose between self-care and childcare as a community in a country that is considered to be one of the wealthiest? I think that we’re really failing women and mothers and families when it comes to the level of support that we offer, and most times, whether it is somebody that’s in the same field of birth work or support, or whether it is that you’re just a mother, you do have to choose. How are you spending your time? Do you have access to affordable childcare? And we’ve noticed that being a barrier for people for being able to, one, provide care to return to the workforce, or to be able to get the self-care that you need and want. So we’ve opened this space, and we have created a beautiful childcare, and whether it is somebody that is coming in to provide the self-care or somebody that’s coming in to receive the self-care, you have the opportunity now to utilize childcare to allow your child to be cared for by a professional in a space that is safe, that you feel comfortable, and you don’t ever have to wonder or worry if they’re getting what they need because they’re having fun with other kids while you get what you need.

Right, while you get a massage, or take a class that’s not a mommy and me class, not the toddler type of classes. You can just have that true self care. And I saw some of your social media promotions about a lounge area where you can just take some time, close your eyes.

That might be my favorite part of the new expansion. Within the Mind Body Baby space, I was thinking, like, what is something that is considered a luxury for moms, and it’s rest. So we created two different lounge spaces. One, we’re aptly calling the Mama Lounge. That’s more of community; grab a coffee. We’ll have a tummy time area for little ones. It’s baby friendly. Come and meet after class and just enjoy a few moments together. But the other one we’re calling the Rest Lounge. We’re going to have seven kind of like rest lounge chairs, pillows, blankets. They’re going to have divider curtains. It’s going to have, like, spa music. And the idea is that it’s childfree, so no kids allowed, but it’s guilt-free rest. So whether you want to bring a book, grab a coffee, drink a coffee while it’s still hot because we know that that doesn’t happen often. Listen to a podcast. Or maybe, just maybe, close your eyes and take a nap.

Exactly. Even 15 minutes of uninterrupted time can make a big difference.

Oh, my gosh, so much. And we joke that moms don’t get sleep, moms need rest – but in a true health and wellness sense, we are living in a really heightened nervous system. Moms are overstimulated. We’re touched out. We often are short-tempered and a little bit anxious, and it’s because we are constantly inputting stimulation. And to have a space that’s very low stimulation to help your nervous system down regulate to help you just feel better in such a way – it’s going to be so beneficial for the family unit, for everybody that’s involved, for your health, for your wellness. Oh, my goodness. I’m just so excited for it. Part of me feels guilty because I’m going to be sending my clients sleeping at work.

No, don’t feel guilty.

I know. No, I can’t feel guilty, right? That’s the point, too. It’s got to be guilt-free. We’ve got to be able to just know that we get to rest, and there doesn’t have to be a prerequisite to rest. Rest is productive, too.

Yes, absolutely. So fill us in about the other practitioners that are part of the Mind Body Collective.

Oh, my gosh, yes! So excited, we just announced, I think on Saturday, so just a couple days ago, the services that are going to be included. And when I listed out the menu of choices of things that you have to choose from on a daily basis at the space, my mind was kind of – how did this come together so beautifully? I’m going to just rattle off some of the things. I hope I don’t miss anything. So we’ve got services within services within services. We’re going to have the on-site childcare and the nursery space. We’ll have specialty movement classes. We’re going to have a co-working space. And then the two lounges, the Mama Lounge and the Rest Lounge. Within our space, we’re going to have a coffee bar café. And then we’ve got all of our collective providers. We’re going to have chiropractic care specializing in prenatal and postpartum. So everybody’s focus is the same stages of life, so fertility, prenatal, postpartum, and beyond. We have massage therapy, acupuncture, pelvic floor physical therapy, birth and postpartum support, occupational therapy, lactation and feeding support. We will have counseling services specializing in perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.

Excellent, and having childcare for that – wow.

Right? I don’t know if anyone listening or you yourself, Kristin, has ever tried to navigate having a telehealth appointment or a mental health appointment while the reason you have the appointment is like, actively, on your lap or talking to you and you feel like you just can’t get the focus that you need on yourself.

Absolutely, with interruptions, yes, it is challenging to have that telehealth, but also convenient for therapy. I have experienced that.

Yeah. I can’t be more elated at the way that this has come together and just the next level of support that we’re going to be bringing in and offering. It just – it blows my mind at the idea that this has come together the way that I dreamed and hoped that it would. It really feels like everything that I – I was a pandemic mom. So going through that – it started with infertility and that feeling isolating, and then becoming a pandemic mom and being – like, hoping that after that fertility journey, I would have my big village of people and support. Pandemic happened; I had nobody. And then postpartum, I had my baby. Everybody met my baby through a window. And it was just – you know, no village, no support, no community.

So you built what you needed with Mind Body Baby. And now, this collective even more so!

100% ! I love the idea that as we are growing with the community – like, my baby was just one when I started this, and so a lot of it is just my own personal experience and needs and then feedback from people. So as we’re growing with our community, if we see a need that’s still not being met, a barrier that’s still not being broken down, we’re able to look at that and say, okay, how can we help? What can we do? We have space. We have a platform. We have resources. What can we do to help get the care and the healing, the support, the community into the hands of the people who need it the most? And those are the life-giving, world-populating mothers.

Yes, and it’s nice that you have so many related practitioners, again, focusing on that pre-conception through early parenting stage, that they can black out their appointments and get a coffee in between, meet a friend, take a nap in between meeting with different practitioners. I wish that Gold Coast was able to make the move, but we are still a big fan, and we’ll send our clients your way.

I appreciate it, yeah. I think, too, it’s community support, and part of the community is the practitioners. I love the idea that our practitioners are moms, too. We are – right now, it’s seven women-owned and operated businesses, and that’s not even counting the individual, like, businesses that are independent consultants that operate within each business. But they’re all women and all moms, and so they need the support just as much as everybody else. And I think that’s part of the reason why they chose to be in the collective because they knew and they understood the level that this is bringing and that they can utilize what we have, too, just as much as the community that they’re serving.

Absolutely. And I know that there are different types of communities cropping up around the country like these postpartum recovery centers in some of the major cities and multiple collective spaces. But I do feel like you have a unique slant on yours. I don’t know if you’ve thought about expanding to other communities or even other states, but it’s a great model.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. Yeah, it’s definitely a lot of work.

Yes, it’s got to be.

As much as we dream of that – we will see. We’ll see where we end up and if it’s something that we’re able to scale and share. We’d love to be able to revolutionize the way that the country receives support and take it further than just West Michigan.

Exactly. And it is so funny that on social media, I see so many moms talking about how they joined a gym just for the childcare and then they work at the gym instead of working out. So you’ve got this co-working station. You have areas that you can have coffee and meet with friends, so more of a social environment. And then the ability to take any of your fitness-focused classes, which you have – you teach yourself, but you also have a variety of practitioners and offerings, whether it’s infant massage to barre classes to, of course, prenatal yoga. Do you want to expand a bit about the offerings that you have in your studio?

I would love to. Yeah, so we – again, growing with the community, it really just started with having prenatal postpartum yoga. And then realizing that that supports part of the community, but what else? And we added in barre classes after that. All of our instructors are cross-trained professionals. They are experts in pre- and postpartum fitness, and so they know how to keep you safe, first and foremost. That’s really important to us. It’s not just about being modified. It’s about making sure that they can educate and keep safe mom and baby. And then we just keep adding on. So from there, we’ve got classes that you can do with your baby. So we’ve got baby and me yoga, baby wear barre, baby and me dance classes where you baby wear and get to dance with your babe. Such a great, cute thing that we do! And then we’ve got things that are more baby-friendly where if you’re not quite ready for the childcare aspect of what we offer, you can bring your baby to your mat and they can watch you grow strong. We’re expanding that now into being more of like a mama and me where we don’t ever want kiddos to look at their moms or to see the way they lead their life or even hear a story from their mom about all the things they used to do. We want them to see that their mom can just excel and grow and continue to be strong with their kids, and it’s not a life or a lifestyle they had to leave behind. So we want them to be able to observe and witness that. So we created this really cool class. We joke that we might call it Hot Mess Express where you can bring your kids with you. And they can watch; they can practice; they can jump on your back. They can do whatever, but the idea is that they’re just in space with you, and it’s something you can do together and they can see you doing that thing that you love to do to grow stronger. So we’re really excited about that one coming up. We’ve got toddler time classes, busy babes. We’re partnering even with a couple other women-owned businesses that bring in other types of movement classes, things that we don’t necessarily offer. We’re bringing in different workshops, like baby signs and ASL class. We’re bringing in bilingual babes, so introductions to early languages. So beyond movement classes, we’re bringing in experts to help shape and offer you fun things to do with your kiddos.

Excellent. I know Alyssa teaches your sleep workshop on occasion. So lovely.

We tell everybody, you’re going to want to sleep. You’re going to wonder how you could ever think about sleep so much as the fourth trimester of your life. So that’s a beautiful offering, too. We love that one.

So Heidi, as far as your true passion in creating this amazing collective, what is your mantra or what keeps you going with all the chaos from finding the perfect building to assembling the members of the collective? You’ve got a lot on your plate with your existing studio, being a mom, and so I would love for you to just share maybe a meditation that you use or a mantra with our listeners.

Yeah. Well, I have two. One is my motivation mantra that brings in the passion, and that is: we can do better. We can do better for ourselves; we can do better for this community. We can do better. And I say that all the time when things just aren’t adding up, when it feels like there’s those barriers. But the other one is for my own mental health to keep me sane on the days where it seems like I’m doing everything, but really I’m breaking down on the inside or maybe even the outside. Having a good cry while I’m overwhelmed because I’m human. And that one is, I can’t be everything to everyone. While I’m trying to create something for everyone, while I’m trying to use all these different pieces and parts and have them work together, I’m going to let people down, and so I have to remind myself that while I’m doing this beautiful thing, I’m also going to disappoint people at the same time. So we can do better, but I also can’t be everything to everyone.

Beautiful. I love it. Thank you for sharing. Alyssa and I recently announced our book that’s coming out on Mother’s Day, and we invited you to be our expert contributor on fitness, whether it’s prenatal or postpartum. So can’t wait for our listeners and clients to see your section that covers everything from swimming to prenatal yoga to different exercises to walking, ways you can move your body in a healthy way.

Well, first of all, I’m so proud of both you and Alyssa for having the mental capacity to put a book together. You’re so busy. It’s a long process. It’s amazing. I can’t wait to see it, to read it. Thank you so much for trusting me to be a contributor to your book. It’s such an honor, and I hope that it’s just so well received because the intentions behind it are so beautiful.

Well, thank you. And similar to our Becoming a Mother course, rather than trying to bring the information from our point of view, we wanted to bring in experts, so we do have everything from a pediatrician contributing to a mental health therapist to you of course with the fitness section, and so many beautiful client stories, whether it’s their birth story to their caring for a newborn to their feeding journey. So it really was a beautiful group effort in creating Supported.

Oh, my gosh, it sounds so lovely. I really can’t wait. I’m so excited to be able to share it.

Maybe we can come in to your birth story class and share some of the stories. We could get some of our clients to share their own experiences. That would be a fun way to do a reading.

That is such a great idea! I absolutely love that. Please do!

Yes, we’ll be in touch!

I love the idea, too, that you took out the opinions and the bias and you made it evidence-based information. And then shared stories. I think that’s really what – as doulas, what we try to offer all the time, and you just wrapped it all up and put it in a book.

Yes, we tried! But we would love to continue to partner with you. Please share all of your different social channels, your website, so our listeners can learn more.

Yes. The website is Mind Body Baby. Our social channel recently got an update because we’re no longer just Mind Body Baby. We are now Mind Body Baby _ Collective to really encompass all that goodness that we have. I know, yay! Yeah, we’re hoping to have our grand opening celebration this summer and would love to see you there and have you as a part of it.

Of course, can’t wait! And we’ll miss you in East Town, but at least you’re here for a little while longer.

I know, kind of bittersweet. We love that studio. It really feels like a space that we grew up in. It kind of held us all and supported everybody, and we watched a lot of families grow within that space, including my own. So it is bittersweet, but we know the expansion is necessary in order to grow the level of services that we have to grow in the space that we have.

Exactly. I’m so excited for you. Well, thanks for hopping on, and we will chat soon!

Thank you so much, Kristin! Talk soon!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Mind Body Baby Collective

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Heidi McDowell of Mind Body Baby Collective: Podcast Episode #235 Read More »

4th Trimester Preparation: Podcast Episode #234

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Dr. Diane Speier chat about how to best plan and prep for the postnatal phase. They discuss everything from communication to support options in this informative episode. Dr. Speier is also the creator of the Digital Doula 2.0 app.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Diane Speier today. Before emigrating to the UK, Diane was the founder and director of the Family Tree Center for Parents in New York, offering classes, groups, and workshops for prospective and new parents for 20 years. Diane became a certified childbirth educator and started attending births as a doula in 1978. Diane is the author of the book Life After Birth: A Parent’s Holistic Guide for Thriving in the Fourth Trimester, drawing on her 45-plus years of experience with helping parents make a smooth transition from pregnancy to parenthood. The book is unique in applying energy medicine to the postpartum period for the enhanced wellbeing of new parents.

Welcome, Diane!

Oh, I’m so glad to be here with you, Kristin!

Yes, I’ve looked forward to our conversation! I am all about talking about resources and support for that postnatal phase, and I’m also very curious about how you got into doula work because in 1978, doulas were not known the way they are now, and there weren’t the number of training organizations. It was a very new industry. So I love that you have been supporting families in so many different ways as an educator, author, and as a doula over these years.

Well, I didn’t know I was being a doula when I was doing it. It ended up being that some of the people who were my clients in my birth education classes wanted me to be there with them, and I just started attending these births and being in a supportive role. Also, you know, assisting and supporting the partner to be engaged in a way that was very meaningful and purposeful but that was just something that came from the connection I had with my clients and the trust that they had in me. So I think what it was, beginning maybe 1990, Penny Simkin came up with DONA International – or it wasn’t even international at that stage. I was sort of grandfathered in, and I’m not part of a list or anything in that sense, but the fact that I had been doing it for so long –

You were one of their early doulas, unofficially. I love that. Wasn’t it the 80s that it officially started?

Well, I don’t actually know. Maybe I’m wrong, but maybe I became aware of it in about 1990, and then I came to live in the UK in 1998. But at that point, I was doing birth doula work and I was doing postpartum doula work and appearing on lists and things when there were local and regional kinds of articles about doulas and stuff like that, and it was – you know, I feel that it was a privilege to be able to do doula work with people, whether it was during the birth or afterwards. I mean, there’s definite connection that’s established between a doula and a mother when she’s giving birth.

Absolutely.

And although it’s different when you’re coming into the home and you’re helping out and you’re assisting with people, it’s not quite the same, but I love the aspect of getting people on their feet and helping them to manage what was going on in the household and creating space, holding space so they could just spend time with their babies, learning what they needed to know in order to be a parent. And my doing all the other tasks and things to create that space for them. I really enjoyed it. It was something that felt very empowering.

The second ten years of my teaching birth education was the methodology that I called birth empowerment, and I really am very dedicated to the idea that birth can be an empowering experience and that the transition to parenthood can also be an empowering experience. And I think that’s the underlying theme of Life After Birth, the book that I wrote.

Yes. I love how everything progressed very organically from education to doula support to becoming an author, to be able to reach an even broader audience.

Right. And I’m even going further than that now because I’m in the process of developing an online course that’s called Eight Keys for Thriving in the Fourth Trimester, and that, I’m hoping, will be an even greater audience for understanding that people are very engaged with planning their birth experience, but they don’t really give much thought to planning what happens afterwards.

Exactly. I feel the same way. I feel like we should plan for the postpartum phase as much as we do for – and I don’t even want to say people are overplanning for their birth itself. Now, let’s put into the time, say, decorating a nursery and registering for items and getting everything put away and washed. That’s the kind of dedication that I would like to have for the postnatal phase.

You know, there’s a book out there that I’m not very in favor of that actually says that’s what you need to do to plan for your postpartum experience is get those things set up, and it’s like, wait. That’s just material stuff. That’s not the reality of – what kind of emotional changes are we going to go through? What kind of role changes are you going to go through? What kind of relationship changes are you going to go through? That – we need to really discuss it because it leads to something called baby shock.

Exactly.

If you’re in the hospital, you go home with the baby – or even if you’re in the birth center – come home with your baby, and it’s almost like, what now? And if you have that information and you also have resources, then you can feel more in charge of the experience, even though it’s going to be hairy for a while, even though they’re going to be heated exchanges and stuff. And if you know that, 92% of couples experience increased conflict in the first year after a baby is born. Then you’re not going to think that there’s something wrong with you or there’s something wrong with your marriage because the two of you are fighting now on any number of things. It’s that kind of information that I’m dedicated to spreading out there and providing in an online course, and ideally, people would engage while they’re still pregnant so that it’s in advance and they can be prepared. But it’s also something that somebody who has a newborn baby can dip into from time to time because each lesson takes about five minutes, and they can be gradually gathering up this information that’s going to help them feel stronger and more confident and more competent as they transition to this new experience. I’m kind of excited about that. I think it’s going to launch in April, and we’re just getting the recordings done now. There are eight modules for this. They cover the whole shebang of what could come up and how you can be prepared and how you can do things that will help you feel better. It also incorporates a whole energy medicine piece, as well.

When I did the training – I did the first year of the training ten years ago. I finished eleven years ago. And I didn’t continue, but there were so many little techniques that would be so useful that right away, I thought, I can definitely add this into the book that I was writing. And I talked with the people who were the – it’s from Eden Energy Medicine and Donna Eden and her husband David Feinstein and I. We had a meeting together and I shared with them what I wanted to do because Donna wrote a book called Energy Medicine for Women, and there was virtually nothing in there about birth and what happens after birth. So they were so excited that I was now going to apply the principles of what I had learned towards new mothers and partners too. It’s not exclusively for the women. And then I came to the second year in 2022. We finished a year ago. And I haven’t really had anything in yet, but there’s more content to come, and I can include that in the online course. So I’m just excited that there are opportunities to provide additional resources for our new mothers.

Yeah, it’s so excellent! I’m curious, since you do live in the UK, how are you adapting to other cultures with that fourth trimester preparation? It can be so different, say, in Europe compared to the United States.

It is different. I’ve been here for almost 26 years now in July. When I first came here, I was working on my Ph.D. actually. I got my Ph.D. based on the account from my clients, my birth preparation clients, over a course of 20 years. I initially thought I might do some kind of comparative, but it wasn’t feasible in terms of comparing what had happened for 20 years in New York before I came here versus what I might be encountering here. So we changed it, and it became a feminist retrospective ethnography of my professional practice. And so what I did was, particularly when it comes to midwifery care – so midwifery care in the United States only represents somewhere around 8% of births that take place. But in the UK, for instance, the midwife is the first point of contact. So maternity care is essentially designed for midwifery care and the person would only encounter and obstetrician if there was some level of complications. So it’s completely different than the obstetric model of the United States.

So I did a master’s dissertation on midwifery as a case study because I needed to learn how they were different. But the thing that really struck me as not as good as the American system is that you have midwives that see you in the community before and after the birth, and then you have midwives that are due for the birth. So the majority of people have babies in the hospital. I think maybe 2 or 3% of people have home births here. And you go into the hospital. You don’t know the midwives. You’re seeing them for the first time. They don’t know you. And so I think the fragmentation of care is not right. In America, if you decide to have a midwife with you, she’ll be there the whole – or someone from their practice will be there from the beginning right through to the end, and I think that’s better.

And then when it came to doula work – when I left the academic realm – because I was there for about twelve years altogether – I registered with the doula UK organization. And it’s not that different from what DONA does. And I spoke. I presented at conferences in 2017, 2018. I did that for a while, but I did stop. My last birth, my last childbirth doula role, was a very complicated one. It was a woman having her fourth baby, and we certainly expecting things to move quickly. And we had one false alarm, and I drove out there; about an hour drive away, and I came back home. And then the next time when she was actually in labor, we went there, and I think the thing that was really not very helpful was that she had her three other kids sort of wandering around demanding attention.

It’s hard to do the work of labor when you’re parenting!

Exactly. So we were all there trying to facilitate this amidst all of that. Birth pool was filled, but she didn’t get into it, and she petered out, as will happen, because the children were there. So we went to sleep, and I went to sleep, but the next day I had another job that I had to be at at 10:00 in the morning. And I couldn’t really cancel it, so I had to leave. And sure enough, after I left, her labor started to go, and she gave birth. So I missed it, and I thought, okay, that’s it, I’m too old for this.

The on call life is hard. I’ve been on call, and I have a partner most of the time unless it’s a repeat client, so I have a shared call model, but it is challenging. I’ve been a birth doula for over ten years, and yeah, that part of it. And you don’t want to miss a birth, but sometimes things happen.

That’s right, and in this case, if I’d just stayed there, it would have been three days total. You know what, I still need my sleep, and I still need – I slept on the sofa that night, but I thought, okay, I can’t manage different things happening, when they start to sort of overlay each other. It becomes too complicated to do. That was in 2018. That was the end of my actual doula work. And I have not done postnatal doula work here, come to think of it.

Okay, so it was only the US that you did the postpartum?

It was only in the US that I did the postpartum, yeah, and I did a lot of it.

Now, in the UK, do they utilize postpartum doulas, or is it more relying on family or nannies?

They do, but they do it in a different way. I’m trying to think; maybe I did do. But my way of doing it was that I would come in, like, three days a week for a couple of hours each day for a couple of weeks, and they did it in a more open ended way here. It wasn’t sort of any kind of schedule. It was just like, over a period of six weeks, we’ll come in, and I never quite understood how that worked. But they were sort of curious about the fact that I had this sort of scheduled out routine, which I think, if I’m honest, I think that the knowledge that I was going to show up at a certain time was very comforting for my moms. And they all knew Diana will be here at such and such a time, and I’ll ask those questions then.

But in addition, I ran a mother and baby class for 20 years, as well, and that was a very rich kind of environment for the mothers because they also scheduled their life around those two classes a week that they would come to my classes. And I really feel so strongly about the need for community for the postnatal period and the fact that there really isn’t that – when I started teaching this class, it was about 1981 in New York. I went around to the pediatricians, and I said, oh, I’m going to start this class for mothers and babies, and they said – one of the doctors sat with me and said, I think it’s a great idea because when you’re in the suburbs, it can be so isolating. When you’re in the city, you can walk down to the park and there’s a park bench, and someone else can sit down and you can start talking. He said, in the suburbs, you don’t have that kind of experience, so this is exactly the kind of thing that we would really encourage. So I was like, okay, I’ve got the blessing. And I did it for 20 years. I actually continued it here after I came for a couple of years, and I found that the mothers of young babies were not that different here than they are in New York.

Makes sense. We all have the same needs to connect and to share our own experience and stories because I find that after delivery with well-meaning family and friends, it’s all about the baby, but the mother can sometimes get lost in the process and lose her identity, her former self and so on, and no one really wants to, say, validate what she went through, help her process the birth. It’s all about, oh, this baby’s adorable, you should be so thankful that you have this healthy baby, and people wanting to hold baby.

And that’s completely wrong. That was one of the motivations for writing the book was the fact that she does – she sort of vanishes into the background, and all eyes turn to the baby. For nine months, she was being celebrated because she was creating life, and then boom, she has the baby and she’s like chopped liver.

Exactly. It’s like, what about me?

Yeah. So my book was really to pay attention to the mother and her experience and then also put it within the frame of the whole family. It’s not just the baby. It’s the mother and it’s the partner. Everybody’s having an experience that we need to really validate and confirm, and this is what I feel we need to really give. It’s just not fair. I never thought it was fair, in all my years of doing it.

And nothing’s changed. It’s still not fair.

It’s just unfortunate. My daughter-in-law is pregnant at the moment and due in June, and they were about to move. I think they’re very caught up in getting all the logistics done before we sort of sit down and talk about it. But when I was talking with her on one of our Facetimes, and she was saying, well, what would you like to do? Would you like to just come and sort of meet the baby and see the baby after it’s born, or would you like to sort of do your whole doula thing? And I said, well, I’m quite happy to come and do that for you, and I explained to her what that might include. I haven’t heard back from them yet as far as that, but I think it’s going to be determined by my son whether or not. But at this point, I have to buy tickets for my flights and find myself an Airbnb, so I can’t wait too much longer. But it is a real disservice to childbearing women that their experience after the birth is just not appreciated and not centered in terms of the family experience. We will all write books and celebrate and get the message out that, yeah, it was a big experience to have a baby and to go through the whole childbirth experience, and we really appreciate how challenging the new mothering experience is for you, and people will want to see your baby, but do yourself a favor, and wait. Because that’s the thing.

You can’t get that time back.

No, that’s right. And it’s so exhausting when they come.

Exactly. You can’t predict when baby will wake or need a diaper change or need a feeding.

And if people come to your house, you feel like you need to play hostess and the rest of it. So no, I say take that time during the fourth trimester to create your little babymoon, your little bubble of who’s in the family. Of course, there may be older children, as well. And save those visits for later when you feel stronger and you’re kind of getting your act together. The exception to that is, if people bring food.

Exactly, or offer to help.

Right. They cannot come empty handed. So if they bring food, that’s okay. If they say, I’ll do the laundry or I’ll wash the dishes or I’ll do the shopping, that’s okay. But to just come and say googoo, gaga – no.

Yes, where you feel like you have to have snacks for the guests and entertain them when you’re recovering from a major life occurrence, no matter how you give birth.

That’s right. Absolutely. Wait on that. So if I were to describe the modules of my online course – I took it from one of the chapters of my book where I called this the postpartum wellness plan, and wellness was an acronym. The W stood for we, which is about dealing with relationship stress that happens after birth. The first E was for energy medicine, so I’m introducing something that’s not well known and yet so easy to do. Anybody including a child can do it. And then the first L is for loving kindness because I think one of the things that I have a podcast – well, actually, it was Instagram Live last night – talking about the fact that a lot of times after women have their baby come, they’re very self-critical, and I’m not doing this right or there’s something wrong with me or whatever. And understanding the premise of loving kindness is that you’re extending your good wishes out to the world out to a person that you love, out to somebody who is neutral, out to a patron. But also, to yourself. Bringing that love back to yourself. May I have physical happiness, mental happiness. May I have ease of well being. And a lot of people find that difficult to do and challenging, but it’s still something we need to foster, that you’re okay. We’re okay. And this is hard, but I’m okay. And I can love myself, even though I’m going through a difficult and challenging time now.

The second L stands for less is more, and that’s what we were talking about with less is more – less visitors. Less stuff. Less paraphernalia. Less social media. Less all of these things that impact on us in sometimes a very profound way.

The N stands for new normal because normal has changed.

That’s not talked about enough, the fact that you can’t go back. It won’t be the same. The new normal – that’s everything.

What happens is, people were sort of very – they’re focused on looking backwards instead of looking forward. And what we need to do is embrace the fact that it’s changed. Everything’s changed. And wonderful things can be ahead of us, even though we’re not having that experience of what we were before children came into our lives. So I thought that was important. I think the second E stands for expectations and the need to manage them because we can have realistic expectations or unrealistic ones, and we can have helpful ones or unhelpful ones, but we need to manage them, and we need to – because we end up dealing with internal expectations of our own and then external expectations. We can have other people’s ideas about how you should be doing things. So here’s where I have them confront the whole word “should.” People are talking to you about “shoulds” – stop listening.

Yes, agreed.

It’s their story. It’s not yours. So, yeah, expectations are important to monitor. And then also there are two S’s which stand for self-care and support. And I’m not talking about self-care in the sense of finding yourself at a spa, but doing day to day things, everyday things, that are taking care of yourself so that you can take care of your baby. And the support goes to the whole idea of community. The community of new mothers is what I saw from my exercise classes all those years, how women would create these sort of cohesive groups, and then I would bump into them in elementary schools ten years later, and they’d say, we’re still friends. It would make me smile. It really would.

So yeah, these are the modules, and I think that if someone has all of these things addressed, then they can make a real smooth transition into and right through the fourth trimester and really feel ready to take on the world when they emerge. So that’s my intention, and I’m looking forward to launch. And I’m actually going to start it as a very reduced course so that people are kind of beta testing it, so that people can give us feedback about each module as it comes up. What worked, what didn’t work, what would you like to see more of. We’re going to drip it out every couple of weeks and allow that time for people to review it and send us back some feedback if they feel it’s important, and we’ll really fine tune it into something that really is the best we can possibly do.

That’s what I did with our online course, Becoming a Mother. We did some live launches, three live launches, and then used feedback from the early students in the course and then adapted it by the time it went evergreen.

Maybe I’ll get it out before my new grandchild arrives. I’ll get the first few sessions out before then, yeah. And you know something, I’m getting on in my years now. And people at some point said to me, aren’t you tired of this? When I went through menopause and past menopause. And I don’t get tired of it. I don’t get tired of it. It’s just something I feel – it’s almost in my DNA, that I feel so drawn to helping this very vulnerable stage in a person’s life so they can feel more confident about what they’re doing.

You said you’ve been doing this for about ten years; is that right?

Correct.

Do you notice any changes in terms of mothers’ anxiety levels? Is that enough time to be able to say? Because if I were to compare what I hear and what I read now in the 21^st century versus when I finished teaching in New York in 1998, I feel like the level of anxiety has jumped.

Yes. It’s so much higher. I started teaching classes after my son was born, so that’s 11 years, and I became a doula 10 years ago. Yes, I have noticed, especially since the pandemic, that anxiety is heightened. There’s more fears going into childbirth. We happen to teach HypnoBirthing, so we address some of those fears, and it is very mental and using some of the visualization, positive self-talk that you discussed. So I feel that method helps, but not all of our doula clients align with that or choose to take a childbirth class. But there is a lot more fear, a lot more anxiety. I don’t know if it’s the reliance on social media and being on all of the time with work.

I think that’s a good point. I think that’s really a good point because I think that you’re getting above the water level, gliding across the water, and paddling like crazy underneath the water, and so you see a very skewed version of what somebody else’s experience is, and then yours – the reality doesn’t seem to match up. I think that’s a form of pressure; would you agree?

I would absolutely agree. On a previous podcast, I had discussed a bit about how social media can be good and bad in many ways. There’s that filtered Pinterest, Instagram perfect life, and then you’re getting into the comparison game. But I also appreciate social media and some of the vulnerability that moms are sharing and showing that their house is a mess or that they’re struggling to make it easier for some of their audience. Say they’re a celebrity or an influencer and people are following them, and they’re going through real struggles and sharing those. Then I feel like that can be helpful.

Yeah, I think it can go both ways. It’s a double edged sword. You can find the support that you need, but you can also feel that pressure to perform when you’re just trying to get by day to day. I think that might be contributing to the state of anxiety that mothers are approaching parenthood with, and how that becomes a barrier to opening up to the possibilities. Do you think people are having less childbirth preparation these days?

I find that our in-person classes have gotten smaller. Maybe it’s a lack of time or traveling. My agency also offers some virtual Zoom classes, some self-paced classes, and then the Becoming A Mother course, so there are a lot of things to choose from, but I do feel like that in-person connection – and I know before I became a doula, I took Lamaze with both of my kids, back to back births, and had a real connection, as you described with some of your postnatal classes, with fellow students, and I’m still friends with many of them. We organized our own meetups with our babies and later toddlers and found out that a few of us were pregnant at the same time with our second babies. It was quite lovely. We intentionally created that community, but I learn better in person, so I always choose in person. But other people, it doesn’t really work for them, for many reasons. Maybe it’s childcare if it’s their second baby.

And I find that it’s an interesting thing that now people sort of say, well, I don’t have time. Yet, 40 years ago, people were saying, oh, I have to get ready for birth, so I’m going to make that time. And my daughter-in-law said, well, there was this one course that was, like, two hours over the weekend. Or she can do the HypnoBirthing course. And I said, well, you’re not going to get anything out of a two-hour class on a weekend, so I would suggest you do a HypnoBirthing. Do you do the Marie Mongan version?

Yes, we sure do. I love the original.

I actually did that. When I was moving back into the birth world after I left academia, I did a course that was taught here of the Marie Mongan version of HypnoBirthing, and because I am also a hypnotherapist. So I thought, well, this is going to pull together two aspects of my work. It’s almost a synthesis. I really appreciated what it had to offer. So I would – at this stage, I would definitely suggest that. What do people think they need, two hours to prepare for birth? But there must be people out there that say yeah. And then they get to the birth and everything gets completely screwed up, right, because they weren’t prepared for this or they didn’t understand that.

Exactly. They don’t understand what their body is going through. They don’t understand the intervention choices or stages of labor. There’s so many things that can’t be covered in two hours. I teach a very hands-on Comfort Measures for Labor class, and I tell couples who take it that they’re not going to learn everything that you would in a comprehensive childbirth class, but at least it gets the partners connecting, talking, moving. Whether they have a doula or not, the partners are learning some hands-on techniques. But that will not prepare them for what they’re going to encounter in labor. It might make labor more comfortable, but yeah, there’s so much more.

When I was teaching, I would teach just a class on the first stage of labor, and then a second class on the second stage of labor, and then a class on the interventions, and then another class on what you just described in terms of labor support and what you can be doing together. And I think that what happens is people come into it – they go into labor and they feel the pain, and that’s all that they focus their attention on. I have this pain. They don’t know why that pain is happening, so that whole – I give a whole three hours’ worth of information about what’s actually happening during the first stage of labor. Your body is contracting and it’s also retracting. And when you know that, you may be feeling the pain, but you know that there’s a real good reason why you’re feeling the pain, and if you haven’t had that education, you won’t – it’s just pain.

Exactly, and they just want it to go away. But it’s pain with a purpose, or discomfort is what I like to call it. I don’t consider it pain because you get a break.

That’s right. And it’s finite.

Yeah, exactly. You get to meet your baby. Again, purpose.

That’s right. Each contraction gets you closer to that. I just think that – I still feel that education is really important because having that under your belt when you’re going through labor means that there’s a good reason and there’s a good purpose, pain with a purpose. And really focusing on the fact that this is a powerful experience, as well, not just a painful experience, but it’s really a powerful experience, getting your baby born.

So powerful, yes. It was one of my biggest moments. I felt so accomplished, and I’ve never run a marathon, but it sort of feels like that. I used to be a runner, and really, that visualization. I felt with both of my births, although they were completely different from each other, were both very empowering for me.

Yeah, all of my births – I have four children – all of my births were very different. I had a hospital birth with a doctor the first time around because I didn’t know any better in ’74. And then I had my second child in a birth center in the New York Maternity Center Association, which went out of business and became Childbirth Connection along the way. But that was the first birth center to open up in the state, and it was in New York, with a midwife. The third birth was an attempt to have a homebirth, but I ended up being a hospital transfer for a forceps delivery. And the fourth birth was at home.

All different. Very different.

Yeah. The only thing I haven’t done – I haven’t done a Cesarean section, and I haven’t had an anesthetized birth. I had a pudendal block for the delivery of the forceps delivery because I didn’t want full anesthesia. But I’ve really sampled a lot of the possibilities in terms of location, anyway.

That’s helpful with your background as an author, creating this app, and understanding different experiences personally and also professionally.

Diane, I could talk to you forever, but we’re running out of time. So let’s touch a bit about how to connect with you, how to purchase your book, buy your app, how to find the course when it’s out, and of course, your website.

So my website would be www.dianespeier.com. And the name of the book is Life After Birth: A Parent’s Holistic Guide to Thriving in the Fourth Trimester. The app is a companion for that. The sections of the app match the sections of the book, but increase that information and add more and also the links that were in the book in black and white become live links in the app. And that’s called Digital Doula 2.0. And it’s available in the app store, as well as in Google Play.

Do you have a chat feature in the app?

We just added a chat feature in the app this past year, and what I want to do – it’s not being used the way we intended, but I changed the app developer in the last year, and I need to sort of follow up on that so that it becomes more communal and we can have group chats in it, and I haven’t worked that out yet. I’ve had other things going on at a fast pace.

Right, with this course launch. There’s a lot going on.

Yeah. And so let me also give you the other website, which is called thrivinginthe4thtrimester.com. They can get information about the online course there and put their name on the waiting list, but also, there’s a free download there from energy medicine. We created a digital download called Energy Matters in Postpartum Resilience. That’s something that people can purchase, but it’s also a bonus as part of the online course. But then there’s a free download, which is the first part, called the Daily Energy Routine. And they can get that. So if they go to Thriving in the 4^th Trimester, that’s where they can access anything related to the online course, as well as some information about energy medicine for free and some to purchase, because the full digital download is a 60-page document, so it’s a little book, and it’s really good.

You can find me on Facebook at Dr. Diane S. Speier. On Instagram, it’s @drdianespeier. Did I leave anything out?

Are you on LinkedIn?

I think it’s Diane Speier on LinkedIn. And you can also find the Digital Doula page on Facebook, as well. I’ll never get tired of this, and because of that, we should have another conversation down the road, Kristin, somewhere.

Let’s do. I would love that, Diane. Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom. Would you like to leave our listeners with one final tip?

One final tip. What would I choose? Look after each other during this very tumultuous time in your life. Just look after each other so you can be a team, and I like to use the word duet because you’re sort of singing a different part, but the harmony that comes together with that is really a wonderful song. So look after each other, because people do not know that having a baby really does change the nature of your partnership a lot, which is why We became the first module of the online course.

Thank you. Excellent advice, and I appreciate all of your time.

And I appreciate what you’re doing, Kristin. I think it’s really wonderful to see how you are providing resources for the community, as well.

Thank you, Diane! Take care!

IMPORTANT RESOURCES

Dr. Diane Speier

Thriving in the 4^th Trimester

Birth and Postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

All of the courses available from Gold Coast Doulas

4th Trimester Preparation: Podcast Episode #234 Read More »

Postpartum Recovery with Lynn Schulte: Podcast Episode #232

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere and Lynn Schulte discuss postpartum healing including hemorrhoids, fissures, and tears as well as preventative steps to take during pregnancy.

Hello, hello! This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Lynn Schulte today. Lynn is the founder of the Institute for Birth Healing, and our topic is all about postpartum healing and recovery after birth. Welcome, Lynn!

Thanks, Kristin, so much! I so appreciate any opportunity I get to be able to share what I know and to help moms.

So happy to have all of your wisdom here for our listeners! Would you start by filling us in on your extensive bio? I was looking over all of your skill sets, and you have a wealth of experience in not only pelvic floor physical therapy but also just healing in general and body work.

Yeah. I’ve been a physical therapist for over 30 years and have taken lots of different continuing education courses, but I would say that my specialty really is connecting a person to a deeper part of themselves and really trying to tap into – my gift is being able to understand why the body is doing what it’s doing and getting to the root cause of tension in the body or why a muscle won’t let go. That is just something that I’ve discovered and developed over the years on my own, not from necessarily taking a particular course. So I love that deeper healing work, and really working with trauma, because that’s the trauma response in the body that can sometimes cause a freeze response in the body and then the tissues don’t really know that the trauma event is over. That freeze response is still held in the tissues. I love that deeper dive.

When we talk about postpartum healing, there’s healing on many different levels. There’s physical healing, and that’s what we really want to talk about today. Emotional healing, and there’s energetic healing, too. I want people to recognize that there is more. When the physical healing isn’t really working, there’s a deeper issue that may be at play that’s keeping that physical healing from happening.

Makes sense. So what are your top tips for our listeners when they are preparing for birth, and then we’ll talk about healing.

So really we need to understand that what we bring to our birth that’s being held in our body is going to impact that birth. It’s really about getting your body assessed prior to going into labor and making sure that the baby has the space and the balance within your uterus and your abdomen to get into a good position to come on out, making sure that your pelvic bones have the ability to move, open, for baby to pass through, and then releasing your pelvic floor muscles as well and making sure that those are like trampolines: able to bounce and give and lengthen to allow the baby to come on out. And so I think every pregnant person should not only just be seeing an OB-GYN or a midwife but also a body worker, someone who is trained in what to look for and how to help create balance and space for baby and assess the body so that baby can come on out. We go into birth just assuming the baby will come on out, and I think that we should be assessing the body more to make sure that it’s ready for birth.

And I feel like there are more and more trained body balancing practitioners, especially in my area, so it is a great referral source, in addition to physical therapy, pelvic floor therapy, not only during pregnancy but also immediately postpartum.

Right. And it’s really important – I think the most important aspects of the body is the uterine ligaments, making sure that those are nice and released and balanced, but also making sure that your pelvic floor muscles have the ability to lengthen for birth is critical. And that you know how to push a baby out. Too many people that I work with in my practice come in and I ask them to push – I’m intravaginal and I ask them to push my fingers out. They actually tighten their pelvic floor. That happening at birth can create those stage 3 or stage 4 tears that go into the anal structure. We really want to try to avoid that, and we do that by making sure the muscles lengthen when you’re pushing.

And tearing is one of the biggest concerns my childbirth students have, as well as my birth doula clients. That fear of tearing is really overwhelming to them and they want to know how to prevent it.

People talk about doing perineal massage, and the research isn’t confirming one way or another saying that it’s helpful. But my thought is that we need to be focusing on the pelvic floor muscles themselves, not just that perineal area, like the opening of your vaginal space. That opening is not where we need to focus. We need to be getting our fingers in deeper and working with the pelvic floor muscles because I feel like the skin is going to follow the muscles. So if the muscles can lengthen and relax, the skin is going to follow.

That makes perfect sense. So after delivery, then, let’s get into concerns. You mentioned tearing, of course. Let’s talk about healing and what your tips are, whether it’s a minor tear or you’re dealing with something fourth degree.

So one of the biggest issues that I find postpartum is that the bones of the pelvis actually need to open up for a baby to come on out. So the two sit bones that you’re sitting on, your tailbone, all three of those bones need to open up, so your sit bones go wider and your tailbone should lift backwards, which is really hard to do when you’re laying on your back, trying to push a baby out. So that position that the doctors find so convenient for them is actually not always the best position for a birthing person to be in because the sacrum needs to lift backwards in order for that baby to come on out, and if you’re laying on it, then the entire pelvis has to lift up for the baby to come on out. The pelvic outlet, from the tip of the tailbone to the ischial tuberosities, that needs to widen for baby to come on out, and I have found, what I want everyone to know, is that that not all the time do those bones go back to their original position. I find open birthing pattern in the majority of the clients that I work with in the clinic, whether they’re coming to me for back pain, pelvic pain, symphysis pubis dysfunction, pelvic floor tension or tightness or pain, pain with intercourse, prolapse, stress incontinence. All of those issues that are very common after having a baby can be attributed to the bones of the pelvis not being in their original position. And when you know what to look for and you know how to close the bones back up to help them get into their proper place, a lot of those problems go away, especially the back pain and the pelvic pain.

Now, some of the signs that your pelvis may be stuck in an open birthing pattern is when you lay on a hard surface, your sacrum doesn’t feel good. It hurts to lay on a hard surface on your back. If you’re sitting, sometimes sitting feels off balance or off kilter because one of your sit bones had to move out to the side more than the other one. One of the key factors that you know if you go see a pelvic floor PT and you’re working in the postpartum period and they don’t ask you what position you were in when your baby came out, they’re not going to be looking at the bones of the pelvic. And a lot of the pelvic floor PTs do not get this concept, unless they’ve trained with me. I’m the only one out there talking about this idea of an open birthing pattern. And so I do have a directory on my website of practitioners that I’ve trained so that you can go and see if there’s someone in your area. But this idea that the bones don’t always go back to their original position is not something that every practitioner out there is looking for.

Very interesting. I do have clients – we have postpartum doulas at Gold Coast as well as birth doulas who are working with our clients up to the first year, and they have that lower back discomfort, especially with breastfeeding in those healing first six weeks. So that sounds like obviously an issue that could be prevented and addressed early on.

Absolutely. And there is an exercise that people can do resisting their knees together and resisting their knees going apart. I have a video on my YouTube channel, which is Institute for Birth Healing. That’s the channel on YouTube. If you go on there and just search for closing the bones after birth and exercise to close the bones after birth – I think it’s titled that. But it shows you how to do it. And I believe in the video I show someone doing it to you, but if you just bend your knees up, you can use your own fists and your own hands to resist those movements, so you don’t need someone externally to help you. You can do this to yourself; just bend your knees up toward your chest and do the exercises. But we’re using the adductors of your hip muscles and the abductors to help bring the bones of the pelvis back together again. So sometimes that can be really helpful for some people. The sooner we do that, the better. I really wish every doula knew how to instruct their clients in doing that because that can be done right after birth. We don’t need to wait, as long as it doesn’t create pain.

If it creates pain, then try the opposite direction, and then if that’s still painful, that person needs help. They need to find a practitioner who knows how to work with the bones of their pelvis to help bring them back into place. And if you are a mom and you’re working with a pelvic floor PT or chiropractor, let them know. I have online courses. Treating the Postpartum Pelvis is an online course that I have that a practitioner can take. My courses are only for practitioners because you need to have a license to touch, to do these techniques that you’ll learn in these courses. Let your practitioner know, go take that course, and then come help me. That’s the best way for you to get help because in the Treating the Postpartum Pelvis course, there’s four different patterns I find in the pelvis after birth, and it teaches practitioners how to close up the bones, how to get rid of those patterns in the pelvis after birth. And I tell you, every day in my clinic, moms get off of the table and they feel so much better. So different in their body after birth, because I’ve adjusted their pelvic bones and gotten them back into a better position. The pelvic floor muscles attach to those bones, so if the bones are splayed open from a baby coming out, your pelvic floor muscles are now lengthened. They’re on stretch. And sometimes the tension or the heaviness that you’re feeling in your pelvic floor or in your perineal area could be because those muscles are trying to keep your bones together. They’re trying to help you out. And so if you go and you see a pelvic floor therapist and they try to release the tension without adjusting the bones, then it could make your pain worse. They’re taking the job away from the muscles. The muscles are trying to stabilize you, and if they try to release those muscles and they haven’t stabilized your bones, your pain can get worse. So please know that, and if your physical therapist or your chiropractor – I know chiropractors are adjusting the bones, but they’re not looking at the bones of the pelvis in the way that I teach. There’s different motions that the pelvis goes through that everybody agrees on, but nobody is really agreeing to this idea that the bones of the pelvis can stay stuck in an open birthing pattern. And it’s funny, Kristin, because so many laypeople and doulas, as well, are like, oh, that makes so much sense.

It does, absolutely. And I remember in my early years as a doula, I attended a Zulu workshop, and there was a closing of the bones ritual. Now, that was more symbolic and healing after birth. It wasn’t necessarily dealing with your topic, but that term was very familiar to me.

Right, and that’s a beautiful ceremony. It’s a beautiful idea. I love it. But it may not address everything because the hip bones are in the way to really moving the ischial bones back into place, and that sacrum being backwards might need some external mobilization.

I do have a free course on my website. It’s the Sacral Flexion Pattern. Again, this is for practitioners. The common postpartum patterns, anyone can sign up and take a look at. I go into more detail of all the different things that can happen in the postpartum body, but the sacral flexion pattern is really for practitioners. And I teach practitioners how to treat the sacral flexion pattern, and that is a game changer. Again, like I said, the pelvic floor muscles are on stretch. When we bring those bones back together, then the pelvic floor muscles are in a much better position to be stronger. And there’s a couple other things that can limit pelvic floor muscles’ strength, and tearing is one of those things that we talked about. When we have scar tissue in there, scar tissue is not as flexible as normal, healthy muscle tissue. And so the scar tissue can inhibit that muscle from being able to function well. But you yourself can get in there and massage that scar tissue. Just offer compression to it and squeeze it and see if you can’t get it to, like, melt between your fingers, because that can help minimize the amount of scar tissue in there.

The other thing I want to make people aware of is when we’re stuck in this open birthing pattern and these pelvic floor muscles are on stretch, trying to have intercourse can be really, really painful because the muscles – the vaginal opening is on stretch. It can’t open up more to allow the penis to come in. That insertional pain is the pelvic floor muscles are not happy. They need help relaxing so that the penis can insert without pain. We need to release that scar tissue, and we need to relax the pelvic floor muscles to help with insertional pain with intercourse.

There’s also deep thrusting pain with intercourse, which can be from the cervix not being able to move out of the way, and scar tissue from C-section scars can cause that.

Back to another issue for why the pelvic floor muscles can’t be strong after birth is that as that baby comes on out, it smushes the bladder out of the way, and it can smush it off to the side, and then the bladder gets stuck over there. And I can find the cervix in any position intravaginally after birth. It can be stuck to your right wall, your left side vaginal wall. It can be pulled back. It can be poking into your bladder. If it’s poking into your bladder, you feel like you have to pee all the time. So getting that cervix back into its midline position by balancing the uterine ligaments and getting the bladder back into place instantaneously changes the strength of the pelvic floor muscles.

That’s amazing, because that is a common concern is that, yeah, frequent urge to urinate after that postpartum healing phase.

And that stress incontinence. When the bladder is off to the side, the pressure from your abdomen can’t reach the urethra. And so that’s why the pressure only hits the bladder and so that’s why we leak. If we can get the bladder back into place, then some of that abdominal pressure can hit the urethra and the bladder and keep the differentiation of pressure inside so that you don’t leak. That’s a bigger concept than most people might understand there, and I’ve really simplified it, but there is a reason, with the bladder being off, that can cause stress incontinence.

Another thing that can cause stress incontinence is that your lower body is jutting out when you go to laugh, cough, sneeze, which increases pressure on your bladder. So your upper abdominal muscles are pushing down, causing your belly to jut outward, and that can increase pressure and every time you do that, you can be leaking urine. So you need to learn how to get your lower belly muscles activating stronger than your upper ones to keep the pressure away from the bladder when you laugh, cough, sneeze. So if people just put their hands on their lower belly and they cough, the belly should draw up and in. If it’s pushing out, that’s something that you need to work with for your belly.

Excellent tip. Another common postpartum concern is hemorrhoids. How would some of your tips factor in there?

Yeah, so the hemorrhoids are around the anal sphincter muscle, and the anal sphincter muscle, I find, knots in most every single postpartum person that I work with. And the anal sphincter muscle gets so stretched out from the way the baby has come on out vaginally. And those knots can create problems with hemorrhoids and also fissures. A fissure is a tear inside the rectal anal canal that every time you have a bowel movement, you’re opening up that wound, and it really feels like you’re pooping glass. It’s so painful. So any time anyone is dealing with hemorrhoids or fissures, you need to release the knot in your anal sphincter muscle, and it’s super easy to do the top half. You can just put your thumb in vaginally and your finger in on the anus and just kind of press around and see if you feel any knots or tenderness. But to do the lower half of the anus, you need to maybe put your thumb in on the anus and kind of push down. If you think about the anus like a clock, you should be able to push in all different hours of the clock, and they should feel nice and mushy and mobile. But if it’s harder or thicker, that’s a tension in that muscle, and it needs release work. Compression of that knot in that muscle can help it to release. And so if you can check that out yourself and try to release what you can – if not, one of my practitioners who have taken my postpartum course can help you out. They know how to release it, and then they can show you how to continue to do it yourself because you definitely – if you’re dealing with a fissure, you definitely want to release your anal sphincter muscle before every single bowel movement.

Excellent. So is there a point where it would be recommended to release some of that tension? Would it be immediately after birth or waiting for six weeks?

It depends on if you have any tearing. So you need to let any tearing or episiotomy scar tissue heal well because it’s going to be way too uncomfortable if you still have stitches in there or if you have an open wound. With a fissure, I find the open wound is opposite of where the tension is. So if you have a sense of where the pain is in your rectum as you’re having a bowel movement, try assessing the opposite side of that circle and seeing if you can release that tissue. That can help because it’s a circle muscle. It all needs to open up evenly to allow the stool to come on out. When we have those knots, that knot area can’t open up as freely, so the opposite side has to open up more. Something’s got to give in order for that stool to come out, and that’s why tears open is because too much pressure is happening there because the opposite side can’t open as well. So releasing that allows that sphincter muscle to open up more evenly, and it takes the strain off that open wound. And that’s what helps it to heal.

But I’m saying if you tore vaginally and you had an episiotomy, wait for that tissue to heal before you go messing around in it. But if you have a fissure and an open wound, you want to try to work with the anus outside prior to having bowel movements to help that to heal.

Okay. Thank you. Any other tips or healing conditions that we didn’t discuss?

Oh, there’s so much. There’s diastasis recti, and you need to release the oblique muscles for that. There’s an oblique release that needs to happen to help speed up the healing of diastasis. And then understanding how the belly gets messed up from birth – all that is covered in my Confidence in the Core, Floor, and More course. That course is designed for moms, so you guys can check that one out. All the other courses on my website are for practitioners. But that has a ton of information in it that can help you understand why your body is being the way it is and what you’re experiencing. And that Confidence in the Core, Floor, and More online course is appropriate for anyone to take. There’s more information there.

And then I really just want postpartum people to know that healing is possible. Doctors don’t give you that sense. So they’re just kind of like, oh, well, you had a baby. What do you expect? And there is healing that can occur, no matter how old your baby is. Please know that there is support for you to feel better in your body after birth. And if you’ve been working with a pelvic floor PT or you’ve been seeing a chiropractor for a while and you’re not getting results, please check out one of my birth healing practitioners on my website. Check out the link to the directory and see if there’s someone nearby. And also recognize that if you feel your birth was traumatic, you need to work with the trauma from that birth first. And that is something that I can assist people with via Zoom. You do not need to be in person to do that trauma release work. That can be done over Zoom. So you can reach out to me at the Center for Birth Healing. That’s my clinical practice. Just reach out and fill out a form and we’ll get in touch and we can set something up. That is how I would like to support moms, knowing that there’s practitioners that I’ve trained that know what I’ve talked about here today, and they can support you.

I also have a Facebook group, Institute for Birth Healing Community, that not all of my practitioners who have studied with me are on my directory yet. I’m working on it. But there are lots of others who have taken my courses that just are not in that directory. So find my Institute for Birth Healing Community group. It’s another avenue to try to connect with someone in your area. Ask the join that. And there’s practitioners and moms in there alike, and you can see if there’s someone in your area that people recommend.

Excellent. You shared so much wisdom in 30 minutes. Any other social channels you’d like to promote outside of the Facebook group and your website?

Yeah, @instituteforbirthhealing on Instagram. Join me there, and you can hear what I have to say on Instagram, too. And then I talked about the YouTube channel, as well. Those are the best channels for me. Thank you.

Thanks so much! We’ll have to have you on again, Lynn.

Absolutely. I would love that.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Institute for Birth Healing

Lynn’s directory of practitioners

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas